The Narrow Path Ministries

All three major views of Hell that we have discussed have this in common: That the Judgment follows the resurrection of the dead. I am skeptical of this scenario. There is very little scriptural support (that I can think of) for this idea. There are many verses which talk about judgment, destruction, and wrath and there are also many passages which speak about the resurrection. But the two topics are not discussed within the same context. The only exception is in John Chapter 5 which I believe is referring to a spiritual resurrection (as I have explained before). Some of you would also say that Revelation Chapter 20 supports this notion, but (like Homer says) it is difficult to "prove" anything from Revelation, so let's keep this discussion to the more plain texts.

So my challenge to those who believe that the Judgment follows the resurrection is to quote some scriptures that you think prove this. I am most interested in any passages which you think refer to judgment and the resurrection in the same context (excluding John 5).

On the other side of the argument I suggest the following...

1 Cor 15 says that the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. Since we know the subject of this chapter is the resurrection, I assume that destroying death is speaking of the resurrection. How can there be judgment and destruction after the last enemy is destroyed?

1 Thess 4 speaks of the resurrection with no mention of the judgment.

Matt 22:30 mentions the resurrection but nothing about judgment.

2 Thess 1 speaks of judgment but no mention of the resurrection.

2 Pet 3 speaks of judgment and destruction but no mention of the resurrection.

Matt 25 speaks of the judgment but no mention of a resurrection.

I just think it is very strange that there is no plain scriptural connection between these events if indeed they line up as the three major views suggest. I could be wrong of course.

Todd

Some of you would also say that Revelation Chapter 20 supports this notion, but (like Homer says) it is difficult to "prove" anything from Revelation, so let's keep this discussion to the more plain texts.



"And i saw the dead, small and great STAND BEFORE GOD and the books were opened and another book was opened which is the book of life, AND THE DEAD WERE JUDGED out of those things which were written in the books according to their works.
And the sea gave up THE DEAD which were in it and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them and THEY WERE JUDGED every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
AND WHOSOEVER was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev 20.12-15

Maybe my imagination isn't developed enough Todd but frankly i can't imagine how John could have spoken about judgement day and people's "aionios" destination any more explicitly.

Steve,

You broke the rules. You weren't supposed to quote Rev 20. But let me say that I don't see the word "resurrection" anywhere in that text. It is assuming too much to quote a book of metaphors to prove anything. Where are the plain texts?

Todd

And why do you wish to exclude John 5? That's pretty definitive also.

Or is that the reason?

You broke the rules. Laughing You weren't supposed to quote Rev 20. But let me say that I don't see the word "resurrection" anywhere in that text. It is assuming too much to quote a book of metaphors to prove anything. Where are the plain texts?




Sorry Todd, it's just that i thought if the dead are standing before God it kinda sounded like a resurrection to me.

Paidion wrote:And why do you wish to exclude John 5? That's pretty definitive also.

Or is that the reason?

I excluded John 5 because I believe that it is referring to spiritual resurrection. John 5:24-25 are definitely speaking of a spiritual resurrection - "passed from death to life" - so also is John 5:28-29. In v.28 those who are in "the grave" refer to those who are dead in sin. They hear the Gospel - those who believe receive life, those who reject are punished. At least that's my take.

Is that all you guys can come up with?

Todd

STEVE7150 wrote:Sorry Todd, it's just that i thought if the dead are standing before God it kinda sounded like a resurrection to me.

Steve,

If these were resurrected why are they still dead?

But these are symbols and metaphors. Let's find something else.

Todd

Consider this:

Hebrews 9:27-28
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (NKJV)

How can there be a judgement without a resurrection? A resurrection is a necessary inference from v.27. And for the universalist, what salvation is awaiting those who are manifestly not looking for His second coming?

I totatly disagree with you assessment of John 5 (well, at least half of it).

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Joh 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Joh 5:26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
Joh 5:27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

All of the above is about a spiritual ressurection in my opinion (thanks to Todd), however, Jesus goes on to say "Don't mavel at this", meaning something greater is going to happen! Not only these will "live", but people who are in their graves (no mention of graves before), will one day live as well.

Joh 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
Joh 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

To ask us to prove from the scriptures that there is a ressurection and judgement, and then exclude the scriptures that talk about it, is a bit unfair don't you think?

Sorry I broke the rules, but I do not agree with your interpretation of these passages. Ignore my post if you like.

God bless,

Steve,

If these were resurrected why are they still dead?

But these are symbols and metaphors. Let's find something else.


How could they still be dead if they are standing before Christ for judgement.?
That would be quite a scene at the judgement , with Christ speaking to dead people standing before him.
Sorry Todd i don't see any metaphors here, maybe it's my lack of imagination. The bible says every idle word will be revealed, who is it revealed tp, a dead person? Do dead people stand or are they propped up, it just sounds literal.
You claim Rev 20 is not chronological but it includes specific events such as DEATH AND HADES being cast into the LOF. Has that happened yet?

NO it has'nt and AFTERWARDS unbelievers are cast into the LOF therefore the LOF is a future event after Christ returns.