No hope

[Guest]

I ran across this verse which poses an interesting question in regards to Universalism. I am not presenting it as a "proof-text" of my non-universalist position, I am just curious as to what you guys think about this, and maybe Eph. 2:12 (which uses some similar language).

1Th 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.

Why is it that the "others" here have no hope?

Are these "other" people merely unaware of the hope they have, or do they really not have any hope?


God bless,

[Guest]

1Th 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.

Why is it that the "others" here have no hope?




Why would they have hope outside of knowing of the resurrection of Christ. From the unbelievers own prospective they indeed have no hope of eternal life. You see that Paul refers to unbelievers as uninformed , thus what is it they are uninformed about.

[Guest]

Derek,

I agree with Steve here. Those who have no knowledge of the covenants of promise can not possibly "have hope" in it...because of their ignorance of it. It does not necessarily follow that they will not benefit from the covenant of promise.

Eph 2:12 speaks of those who are "strangers from the covenants of promise." To me this means they are ignorant.

It would be similar to a man whose wife had entered the Publishers Clearinghouse contest. The man didn't know she entered, and he had never even heard of the contest before. How could he "have hope" that she would win if he didn't know she entered and had no prior knowledge of it?

Todd

[Guest]

Hi Todd, Steve,


I don't think these people were in Christ without knowing it, and then simply made aware at a later time that they had been the whole time.

They were "far off" (not in the contest-no hope) and then "brought near" (signed up for the contest) by His blood (mind you, they are merely signed up at this point, not having atained the prize-Phil 3:14).

The were at one point, not in Christ, dead, alienated, strangers to the promise, without God, separated from Christ, and now through faith (2:8), they are saved, brought near to God (vs 13), and reconciled to God (implying that we needed reconciliation).

Of course, Todd, there is the problem of terminology here, that I am becoming more aware of through our posts. Almost everything I said in the above paragraph, (i.e. saved, reconciled, etc.), means something very different to you, than it does to me, so we problably can't communicate very meaningfully, unfortunatly.

Steve:

Why would they have hope outside of knowing of the resurrection of Christ. From the unbelievers own prospective they indeed have no hope of eternal life. You see that Paul refers to unbelievers as uninformed , thus what is it they are uninformed about.

Of course, I would say that they had no hope because they really weren't in Christ, not because they were ignorant of the fact that they were. How could they have faith without knowing about Him? We are saved by faith are we not?

Paul is not refering to unbelievers as "uninformed", but believers (the Thessalonians). In Pauls words, the "you" are those he does not want to be uninformed. He doesn't want them to greive as "others" do, who "have no hope".

All that being said, why does Paul use language like this? He seems to be speaking, in both passages, as if these people really are without God, and therefore hopeless. He doesn't seem to put forth the idea that they are just ignorant, does he?

Anyway, thanks for the input guys. Just wondering how you felt.

God bless,

[Guest]

All that being said, why does Paul use language like this? He seems to be speaking, in both passages, as if these people really are without God, and therefore hopeless. He doesn't seem to put forth the idea that they are just ignorant, does he?



Derek, I agree if you are not "in Christ" you are without hope while in this condition whether from ignorance or any reason, but i simply don't see why the possibility of salvation is cut off at our physical death in this life. Being "judged" or "judgement" at the resurrection IMHO does not preclude this possibility. I'm not a hard core universalist , i simply see God as being just.
Yes we are condemned and die in our sins outside of Christ but i see the lake of fire as ultimately a redemptive process.
There are so many indications of this such as the fact that it's a lake not an abyss sealed shut which was a term used in Revelation for a place that demons were locked up. God could have used that description for the LOF yet He did not.

[Guest]

1 Thess 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Derek,

The subject here is the resurrection. If someone doesn't believe in the resurrection, how can they have hope in it? People who don't believe are in sorrow because they assume that their loved ones have died never to rise again.

You said that it is not about ignorance, but what did Paul say in this verse? Read it again. He says that very thing. He says that those who have no hope are ignorant.

Todd

[Guest]

Derek, One last thing. I don't think being in the LOF is a day at the beach. Jesus said for some it would have been better if a millstone were hung around their neck and they were tossed into the sea.

[Guest]

Hi Derek I agree with Todd and Steve. The phrase " no hope" is referring to the people who lost hope for their love ones who have died. The thesallonians believed that Christ must return in order for them to be able to enter his Kingdom.
That is why Paul said the ff: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him." The phrase no hope in here is not referring to the hope of salvation.

[Guest]

1 Thess 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Derek,

The subject here is the resurrection. If someone doesn't believe in the resurrection, how can they have hope in it? People who don't believe are in sorrow because they assume that their loved ones have died never to rise again.

You said that it is not about ignorance, but what did Paul say in this verse? Read it again. He says that very thing. He says that those who have no hope are ignorant.

Todd

Hi Todd,

I sort of steered most of my comments toward the Ephesians passage, since that's what you quoted. I think my comments hold true in regards to it.

In regards to the Thessalonians passage:

I see where you are going there, and it makes sense. However, I would say that Paul doesn't want them to be ignorant of the hope that they have, unlike the "others" who don't have it, not being in Christ. They will be ressurected to judgement, as opposed to life.

1Th 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.

The Thesallonians are ignorant of the hope that they have. Paul says the others are without hope, not ignorant. He doesn't want them to be like the others.

It seems that this verse (in Thessalonians, not Ephesians) can be interpreted either way, so it really doesn't prove anything one way or the other. Oh well!

Thanks!

[Guest]

I think "the others" who grieve as ones having no hope, refers to the fact that these "others" do not expect their loved ones ever to live again. We ought not to grieve in this manner, as we are expecting the resurrection. I do not think there is any "deeper" meaning beyond that.