UNCLE JOE AND THE SECRET BASEMENT CHAMBER OF BAD BOB

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:13 pm

An interesting essay at The Ooze about Hell:

http://www.theooze.com/articles/article.cfm?id=1086

Post by **_TK** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:35 pm

Thanks for posting this.

The problem I have with this is that it makes God out to be an evil monster, and we know that is not the case. Stories like this try to force that conclusion; i.e. if there is a literal hell of torment, then God must be evil.

This creates a problem if hell, as per the traditional view, IS a place of eternal torment. Do we reject God, or simply accept that we dont know everything, and that since God is love and also good, trust that He knows what He is doing?

TK

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:35 pm

Here is a post by the author of the story.

Thanks to all for your kind and thoughtful responses. I wish I could tell you the point of the story is that I have it all figured out and have resolved all incongruities regarding the issue of hell. The only thing I am certain of is that indeed the jury is still out. I do also feel certain that hell is not what I was taught it was in the various conservative churches I've attended. Even when I was a little boy I pondered the idea that if God loved the whole world and sent his Son to save it, but less than half were indeed saved, well, that would be a failure of some sort. Yes, I know Richard's argument well---it's what I've heard all my life. Still, when I read verses like Colossians 1:19 "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross," it sparks a hope in me that perhaps it really means what it says---that Christ's sacrifice truly reconciled all things to God. Either way, whether God's grace is large or small I stand in awe at the honor of being allowed to share Christ's mission---to tell all that the Kingdom of God is at hand, even more, it is here and now and within us.

Todd

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:59 pm

Hi TK,

Thanks for replying.

I think you've adeptly pointed out the crux of the issue that the essay is dealing with. Is it this essay that makes God appear to be an evil monster, or is it the doctrine of eternal torment itself? Doesn't the essay really just recast the tenets of the doctrine in a different setting?

As you said, God is love and also good. The doctrine of eternal torment seems to contradict who God has revealed Himself to be, particularly in Christ. What is the redemptive purpose of eternal torment?

I don't think the answer is to reject God, but to examine this particular doctrine. Although the eternal torment view of Hell may be "traditional", does it really reflect what Jesus and the early Christians believed and taught? After all, it would not be the first doctrine handed down to us by church tradition which is highly questionable.

Post by **_Derek** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:13 pm

Good story Mort. Something to think about for sure. Thanks for posting it. I definitely think that the "traditional" view needs rethinking.

God bless,

Post by **_Michelle** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:25 pm

Thanks, Mort Coyle, for posting the link. I enjoyed reading the story very much, even though I have a low threshold for violence. I've been wondering about what I've always believed about hell for a long time now. I hope the discussion continues at this forum for a while.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:03 pm

We did have a very long thread on the topic called alternative views of hell.

Post by **_Michelle** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:15 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:We did have a very long thread on the topic called alternative views of hell.

I know. I just can't make up my mind, so I hope the discussion continues for a little bit.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:26 am

STEVE7150 wrote:
We did have a very long thread on the topic called alternative views of hell.
I know. I just can't make up my mind, so I hope the discussion continues for a little bit.

Michelle, Maybe try thinking about all the people in the world , like in China or India or Africa and throughout history never knowing Christ in this life. How does God look at these people or the people living in the middle ages when virtually everyone was illiterate and the RCC had every bible chained up in a church.
What happens to these people, are they just in the wrong place at the wrong time or is Jesus really going to be who the bible says he is?

Post by **_Michelle** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:37 am

STEVE7150 wrote:STEVE7150 wrote:
We did have a very long thread on the topic called alternative views of hell.
I know. I just can't make up my mind, so I hope the discussion continues for a little bit.

Michelle, Maybe try thinking about all the people in the world , like in China or India or Africa and throughout history never knowing Christ in this life. How does God look at these people or the people living in the middle ages when virtually everyone was illiterate and the RCC had every bible chained up in a church.
What happens to these people, are they just in the wrong place at the wrong time or is Jesus really going to be who the bible says he is?

Hi Steve,

I've thought about that a lot! In fact, that's where the trouble began for me.

Funny you should mention medieval people; it reminded me of this city or village (or something, I can't remember for sure) in Switzerland where the buildings are decorated with grotesque images of hell and torment. Imagine seeing that everyday! I bet you'd be scared into obeying whatever the church told you. And that's what, to me, is one of the most troubling aspects of the Uncle Joe story; that the children in the house now loved Uncle Joe not because he loved them, but because they were scared of being sent to the basement.

Anyway...I don't mean to restart the whole discussion here again and have it go on for pages and pages. I just hope you guys bring it up again from time to time, until I can decide for sure what I believe.