Imputed Righteousness

[Guest]

How does God work in the heart of mankind today (in this life)? Is it through our conscience (Rom 2:15)? Is it through the work of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8 )? Is it through the direct intervention of events? Perhaps it is all of these. What happens when we sin? How does God deal with that now (today)? Or, does He withhold any action until Judgment Day?

It is my belief that God deals with sin in our lives immediately and continually, until one repents and the sin is rooted out. I also believe that "God is no respecter of persons" (shows no favoritism) and takes action against Christians and non-Christians alike. Here is how I believe it works...

1. We are convicted by the Holy Spirit. This is necessary because without it we may sometimes not even realize that we have sinned. The Holy Spirit convicts our heart that we have sinned.
2. Our conscience is burdened with a feeling of guilt. This is a weight that is carried that can lead to anxiety, depression and even health problems if it is not dealt with. It is also cumulative in that as sin increases in our life, so does the guilt burden.
3. We also bear the natural consequences of our sin. We reap what we sow. God "gives us over" to these consequences (Rom 1).

All three of these things constitute God's wrath upon mankind in this life. I begin this thread intending only to discuss how God deals with us before death.

Think of a sinless person (e.g., Christ). He requires no conviction. He carries no burden of guilt. He is free from the internal struggles that accompanies these things. When someone comes to know Christ (is converted), God clears his conscience. Christ's suffering takes the place of the internal suffering that this individual has experienced, and he is made free from the guilt burden he was carrying (Is 53:10).

This is a description of Imputed Righteousness. A man who was burdened with guilt, once he places his faith in Christ and is converted, is given the conscience of Someone fully righteous - a totally clear conscience. This is how forgiveness works also - no longer bearing the realtime consequences of past sins (with the possible exception of the remnant of the natural consequences).

Heb 9:14
how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 10:22
let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

I am interested in your thoughts on this idea that Imputed Righteousness is something that is experienced now, in this life.

Todd

[Guest]

Todd-

What's confusing me is that you are defining "imputed righteousness" differently than it has traditionally been defined.

i dont necessarily have a problem with what you have posted, other than your use of the term "imputed righteousness" in this context. I agree, however, that because we are forgiven (or cleansed) that our consciences should (will) be clear, as long as we confess our sins.

TK

[Guest]

Todd,

You wrote:

It is my belief that God deals with sin in our lives immediately and continually, until one repents and the sin is rooted out. I also believe that "God is no respecter of persons" (shows no favoritism) and takes action against Christians and non-Christians alike. Here is how I believe it works...

1. We are convicted by the Holy Spirit. This is necessary because without it we may sometimes not even realize that we have sinned. The Holy Spirit convicts our heart that we have sinned.
2. Our conscience is burdened with a feeling of guilt. This is a weight that is carried that can lead to anxiety, depression and even health problems if it is not dealt with. It is also cumulative in that as sin increases in our life, so does the guilt burden.
3. We also bear the natural consequences of our sin. We reap what we sow. God "gives us over" to these consequences (Rom 1).

All three of these things constitute God's wrath upon mankind in this life.

Well if this is true, how are we to explain God's wrath in the case of ol' Hugh Hefner? He has been a lifelong blasphemer and fornicator, not only blatantly sinning, but working hard at encouraging others to do the same. Yet his health would certainly appear excellent (he will be 81 soon), he has great wealth, lives in luxury, and seems very happy. According to your theory, he ought to be miserable yet we see no sign of it. And to top it off, according to your theory, he has done his suffering for sin in this life and will be in heaven right along side Mother Teresa!

[Guest]

Well if this is true, how are we to explain God's wrath in the case of ol' Hugh Hefner? He has been a lifelong blasphemer and fornicator, not only blatantly sinning, but working hard at encouraging others to do the same. Yet his health would certainly appear excellent (he will be 81 soon), he has great wealth, lives in luxury, and seems very happy. According to your theory, he ought to be miserable yet we see no sign of it. And to top it off, according to your theory, he has done his suffering for sin in this life and will be in heaven right along side Mother Teresa!

Homer,

I certainly understand your logic. It seems to you that Hugh Hefner should be punished far more than we can see (if God's wrath is indeed poured out only in this life). You have brought up this example before so let's discuss it.

First of all, I do certainly agree that adultry, fornication and promotion of pornography is sinful, and that our Lord would consider this grounds for punishment. Your contention is that, from your perspective, Hugh Hefner seems to not be suffering any punishment like I have described. My question to you is: How do you know? Do you know what is going on in the heart of Mr. Hefner? Do you know if he has battled depression? Do you know if he has had any guilt feelings?...or if he carries a big burden of guilt up to this day? I certainly don't have a clue. So I think you assume too much.

Also Homer, do you not believe that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin? Do you not believe that our conscience "accuses" us with feelings of guilt when we have done wrong? Do you not believe that God "gives us over" to "uncleaness, vile passions, and a debased mind" when we get overcome in sin?

And what about the verses in Hebrews that I quoted? Do they not say that the blood of Christ serves to give us a clear conscience?

I would be very interested in your answers to these questions.

Todd

[Guest]

Todd-

somebody like britney spears, or anna nicole smith, or lindsay lohan, or any of a bunch of other celebrity types who seem to go through hard times seems to better fit your paradigm of people who are being "punished" for their rebellion during this lifetime. unfortunately, their consciences are more likely to push them into scientology than christianity, at least in hollywood.

and you are right, we dont KNOW what hefner experiences late at night (between his two beautiful blondes- sorry) when he is alone with his thoughts. i doubt seriously that he is all that troubled. just a guess though. but we have discussed this before; i simply disagree that the average sinner is horribly troubled by their conscience. i think the average sinner is "numb" to this- which i think Paul is talking about in Romans 1 when he says "God gives them over..."

i do agree, however, that as Christians, our knowledge of God's forgiveness does serve to cleanse our conscience.

TK

[Guest]

Also Homer, do you not believe that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin? Do you not believe that our conscience "accuses" us with feelings of guilt when we have done wrong? Do you not believe that God "gives us over" to "uncleaness, vile passions, and a debased mind" when we get overcome in sin?


But Jesus said "they love the darkness because their deeds are evil."
If unbelievers were convicted of sins they would look for the light but few do. And Jesus did'nt just say that they look for darkness he said they LOVE the darkness. The Holy Spirit can be grieved away and many sinners just seem to overcome their guilty feelings and keep on sinning with gusto.
Todd you get an A for persistence and effort but for herminutics, that's another story.

[Guest]

Todd you get an A for persistence and effort but for herminutics, that's another story.

God bless you, Steve. You may be entirely right.

Todd

[Guest]

One last post and I'll shut up.

What I was trying to say is that a case can be made that things like punishment, wrath, atonement, forgiveness, etc. can be understood in a "this life" context. There is, I believe, scriptural basis for it. And it could very well be that God's punishment is not as devasting as the "traditional view" of Hell would lead us to believe.

Now I'm done.

Todd

[Guest]

Hello, gentlemen,

For what it is worth, let me add that even if a person does not appear to be punished for their sin or even troubled by it, that does not mean that they have not reaped a dividend of death from it in this life. That dividend exists in the superior life that they have missed out on.

Mr. Hefner may feel quite satisfied and happy, but he also has missed out on the unique blessings of a lifelong exclusive partnership with a spouse. He may be exceedingly wealthy, but he has missed out on the satisfaction of knowing that he has done all he can to alleviate the misery of those who are in dire want.

As for divine wrath: "He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he who rules his spirit, than he who captures a city" (Proverbs 16:32). If this is true for humans, how much more so may we expect that God will rule his wrath in sundry places and times, for sundry purposes?


Shlamaa,
Emmet

[Guest]

Mr. Hefner may feel quite satisfied and happy, but he also has missed out on the unique blessings of a lifelong exclusive partnership with a spouse. He may be exceedingly wealthy, but he has missed out on the satisfaction of knowing that he has done all he can to alleviate the misery of those who are in dire want.


Give me a break Emmet