God's mercy and justice

[Guest]

It is a common doctrine in today's church that God is both merciful and just. That He is just in that all sin must be paid for or face His wrath - no sin will go unpunished. But that He is also merciful because he provided a Savior who suffered this wrath in our stead so that we could be forgiven of our sins. On the one hand God is our advocate in that He is merciful. But, on the other hand, God is our adversary, because we have all sinned and face His judgment. This is what I have been taught - that we have a God who is both Advocate and Adversary, both merciful and vengeful, both forgiving and unforgiving. Is this a correct picture of God? Is this the correct way we should understand His justice? Let me propose an alternative view.

I believe that God's justice should not be contrasted with His mercy; rather, it should be contrasted with human injustice. Since the beginning of time the world has been filled with human injustice. Think of King Herod who killed all the male babies in an attempt to kill Jesus. Think of France, before their revolution, when the rich and powerful benefited at the expense of the poor and oppressed. Think of the plight of Jews during the holocaust. And even today, there are systems of injustice throughout the world where people are oppressed, hated and disregarded due to human injustice. These things should not be! Yes, God is just - He is just because of His Love for His creation - He abhors human injustice. Think of Jesus' teaching about the Kingdom of God. Jesus taught what the world would be like if God were King. A Kingdom which would remove all sources of human injustice and replace them with God's goodness (Godly justice). In the Kingdom of God, the poor would be comforted, the weak would be made strong, the meek would inherit the earth, the humble would be exalted, and the hungry would be fed. This is our God who loves everyone. God's justice demands that everyone would be cared for, that everyone would be encouraged and built up, and that everyone would find joy and fulfillment. This is God's justice - not a contrast to His mercy, but a complement to it.

So, God is not our adversary. God is truly Love. Through both his mercy and His justice, He is our advocate. Praise God for His goodness!

Todd

[Guest]

why, then, did Jesus have to die?

the wrath of God seems so clear in scripture (e.g. romans 1) that i dont see how it can be disputed.

TK

[Guest]

why, then, did Jesus have to die?

Jesus was executed by both the Jewish order and the Romans for what he taught. His teaching of the Kingdom of God was contrary to them both. So, in one sense Jesus was a martyr. But Jesus was also "The Way." Through his death and resurrection he showed us the way. The way to abundant life is to be "born again," to die to self and live to God. It is incumbent upon us as his disciples to make his teaching of the Kingdom of God a reality in how we live our lives. We are his hands and feet and lips in this world spreading God's love and making a difference on our sphere of influence.

the wrath of God seems so clear in scripture (e.g. romans 1) that i dont see how it can be disputed.

God's wrath is poured out upon the living through the working of His Holy Spirit as a call to repentence. In this too He is our advocate in that He chastens every son whom He receives. It is God's will that all will repent and follow Christ.

Heb 12:7
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?

Rev 3:19
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.

Todd

[Guest]

Hi, Todd,

Thank you for your post.

For what it may be worth, I appreciate your post. Doctrine about God's justice needs fresh consideration in some Christian circles. It is useful to ask whether God is at odds with himself.

It seems preferable to conceive of justice as a positive concern, rather than a negative one - that is, it is more about establishing righteousness than about destroying sin. It is not sin that must be paid for - it is righteousness that requires investment.


When it comes to a doctrine of the crucifixion, perhaps it is not necessary to see Jesus' death as a sop to God's wrath. One may wonder how the brutal murder of God's innocent Son is supposed to make him less wrathful toward human sin !

Perhaps the crucifixion should not be understood as being about what God needs for reconciliation to take place, but about what humanity needs. In line with what you have noted, humanity needs to see how to live in complete commitment to God, even at the cost of one's own life. Seeing this can change or strengthen the human heart to embrace full commitment, which is necessary to reconciliation (AKA atonement).

One might also add that humanity needs to recognize how human sin yields death. This is not simply a matter of death being meted out as a punishment - sin naturally produces death as its outgrowth. When a man is made to suffer, as in the crucifixion narrative, it vividly shows how pride or envy or whatever other sin has borne deadly fruit. The crucifixion narrative, in particular, may speak not only to pride and envy, but also to fear. When the reality of sin leading to death is recognized, this too can change or strengthen the human heart when it comes to making a full commitment to God and his life.


Thanks again for the post,
Emmet

[Guest]

It seems preferable to conceive of justice as a positive concern, rather than a negative one - that is, it is more about establishing righteousness than about destroying sin. It is not sin that must be paid for - it is righteousness that requires investment.

Emmet,

I like what you have said here. Yes, God's justice is a positive concern, not something that opposes us; rather, one that brings goodness to mankind. I am reminded of these words of Paul...

Eph 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Paul says, that we do not struggle against individuals, with individuals we are caring and giving. Our struggle is against systems of human injustice that have been established in our culture and governments. These systems that were set up for the benefit of the rich and powerful at the expense of the poor and oppressed. Our struggle is against cultural prejudices against those who are different. Our struggle is to establish Godly justice (righteousness) in the place of human injustice. But with individuals who are oppressed and even those who struggle with sinfulness in their lives, we are to be loving and giving. This is Christ's teaching of the Kingdom of God.

Todd

[Guest]

Jesus was executed by both the Jewish order and the Romans for what he taught. His teaching of the Kingdom of God was contrary to them both. So, in one sense Jesus was a martyr. But Jesus was also "The Way." Through his death and resurrection he showed us the way. The way to abundant life is to be "born again," to die to self and live to God. It is incumbent upon us as his disciples to make his teaching of the Kingdom of God a reality in how we live our lives. We are his hands and feet and lips in this world spreading God's love and making a difference on our sphere of influence.

While I think that these statements are true, and contain a facet of what transpired on the cross and why, I don't think that they tell the whole story.

Your idea seems to deny the substitutionary aspect of the Lord's death. You are almost making His death merely an example for us to follow, rather than something that happened objectivly, in which we place our faith to secure salvation. I have understood your view of "salvation" to be quite different than the historical view, so I guess you are just being consistent.

How does this view comport with the idea that Jesus "gave Himself a ransom" (1 Tim 2:6), that God "made him to be sin for us (2Co 5:21)," that Jesus "obtained our redemption" (Heb 9:12)", that He has "redeemed us from the curse of the law, by becoming a curse for us (Gal 3:13)", He "
delivered us from the wrath to come (1thess. 1:10)", etc..

The bible seems pretty clear that Jesus died to pay a price, and deliver us from the wrath "to come" not merely to be an example for us to follow (though that is one aspect of it).

So, God is not our adversary.

I don't think that God, for His part, is our enemy, but we (before we are saved) are most definitly His enemies (Rom. 5:10), hostile toward Him (Col 1:21), our sins are in need of propitiation (Heb. 2:17), to placate His wrath (1 Thes. 1:10). Practically the whole book of Hebrews teaches that Jesus was an offering for our sins. God's justice doesn't "oppose us", or make Him our adversary, we have opposed God, and chosen, by sinning, to become His adversary.

But Jesus was also "The Way." Through his death and resurrection he showed us the way. The way to abundant life is to be "born again," to die to self and live to God.

Jesus does present a way to live, but I think that He is the way, in that we can be with God "through Him", that since He is our High Priest and mediator, we can "come boldly to the throne of grace, to find help in the time of need".

God has revealed that the "soul that sins, it shall die" (Ez. 18:4). God is by definition perfect, therefore He is perfectly just. Unless He has somehow changed His mind, (which I am not aware of), He has not changed the decree from Ezekiel above (c.f.Rom. 6:23). He has also revealed that He "does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked", so in His great mercy, He became flesh and died for our sins, providing a way to reconcile us to Himself, so that His justice is satisfied, and He is able, while being faithful to His perfectly just nature, to be merciful toward us sinners.

On a side note, I have been wondering what your take on the Old Testament is. How do you reconcile God's dealings with sin in the Old Testament, say, in Numbers 31, with your particular view of God? Perhaps it is here that you see a substitutionary view of the atonement, in that God is able to deal with mankind differently after the death of Christ? Just wondering.

God bless bro!

[Guest]

Your idea seems to deny the substitutionary aspect of the Lord's death. You are almost making His death merely an example for us to follow, rather than something that happened objectively, in which we place our faith to secure salvation. I have understood your view of "salvation" to be quite different than the historical view, so I guess you are just being consistent.

Hi Derek,

I don't deny that the New Testament teaches a substitutionary aspect of Christ's death. You have made a great summary of that teaching in your post. I just think we have taken it too literally when the real meaning may be more spiritual. Atonement theology is predicated on the idea that God must appease Himself in order to allow anyone into heaven. My belief is that Christ's death is more about "The Way" (an example) than it is about appeasement, and that salvation is more about our lives before we die than it is about after death. Think of this scripture by Paul....

Phil 2:5-11
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Paul says that Christ's death was an example of humility and obedience that led to being exalted by God. In following this example we also should put on a cloak of humility and "die to self" and follow Him in loving obedience. The is "the way" to abundant life in Christ.

Todd

[Guest]

Paul says that Christ's death was an example of humility and obedience that led to being exalted by God. In following this example we also should put on a cloak of humility and "die to self" and follow Him in loving obedience. The is "the way" to abundant life in Christ

.

I agree with this, and said as much in my earlier post. However, it is only one small aspect of the atonement. All of the scriptures that I quoted, and the bulk of the verses about the atonement, teach that, as you said, "God must appease Himself in order to allow anyone into heaven" (you appear to disagree with this, even in light of those scriptures). .

This also comports with the entire sacrificial system in the Old Covenant, and why Christ was the fulfillment of it in the "offering" of Himself.

As to the verse from Philippians that you quoted, that seems to have less to do with the atonement, than with the entire attitude of Christ, in His obediance to the Father, and His willingness to serve, even to die. All things that should be emulated of course. But is this a verse from which to derive an atonement theory?

I would be interested in why you think that the cross was more "example" than propitiation in light of the scriptures I quoted.

P.S. Did you see the question about the OT? I realize that it is slightly off subject, but since we are dealing with the justice of God, I think its still pretty relevant.

God bless,

[Guest]

Derek,

Thanks for your excellent questions. I will get back to you when I have more time to give you a good answer.

Todd

[Guest]

I don't deny that the New Testament teaches a substitutionary aspect of Christ's death. You have made a great summary of that teaching in your post. I just think we have taken it too literally when the real meaning may be more spiritual. Atonement theology is predicated on the idea that God must appease Himself in order to allow anyone into heaven. My belief is that Christ's death is more about "The Way" (an example) than it is about appeasement, and that salvation is more about our lives before we die than it is about after death. Think of this scripture by Paul....



In the OT the Tabernacle was a picture of Christ and the sacrifice on the brazen alter which was a shadow of the cross was said to have been made to appease God. The sprinkling of blood on the golden alter was to please God but the actual sacrifice was to appease God. And the tabernacle was literally "the way" to God because it was the way prescribed by God just as Jesus came to tabernacle among us and he is also literally "the way" not spiritually but literally just as the tabernacle was literally , the way.