The cross and the sword

Post by **_schoel** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:36 pm

Greg Boyd wrote a book,Myth of a Christian Nation , and taught a series at his church regarding the unfortunate merging in many minds of Western Christians of the kingdom of God and the US. Links to the teachings (free downloads) can be found here.

What impacted me the most wasn't the argument that the kingdom of God that was proclaimed by Jesus shouldn't be mixed with any of the kingdoms of this world, which I already knew and agreed with. What was challenging was his description of the different approaches of the 2 kingdoms to world change

World's kingdoms - escalating retaliatory reaction and "power over" control

God's kingdom - turning the other cheek and "power under" service

I'd recommend a listen if you haven't.

If you have, what did you think?

Post by **_Christopher** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:49 pm

Hi Dave,

I also listened to that series a few months ago and really liked it. Thanks for posting this for everyone.

Post by **_Michelle** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:03 pm

I read the book this past summer. I had a lot of “aha” moments while I read; things that I sort of had in the far corners of my mind, became more centralized and clear. The differences between the kingdom of the sword and the kingdom of the cross made sense and seemed kind of obvious, although I guess there are plenty of people for whom it is neither obvious nor makes sense.

schoel wrote: World's kingdoms - escalating retaliatory reaction and "power over" control

God's kingdom - turning the other cheek and "power under" service

A couple of weeks after I read The Myth of a Christian Nation, I listened to Wayne Jacobsen’s Transitions series. It’s interesting (maybe scary?) that the “power over” model is what he objects to in the institutional church. So the church is trying to be what government is supposed to be, at the same time trying to transform the government into something it can never be, all the while forgetting about having hearts transformed by God.

I’m sorry if that strays from your original intent for this thread, it’s just that I read/listened to both at around the same time so the similarities jumped out at me.

Post by **_anothersteve** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:51 pm

Dave, thanks for the link to the messages! I listened to the entire 2004 series and really liked what he was saying. I was a little surprised to hear that about 1000 congregants (20%) left as a result of these messages.

I hesitate to speak about US politics, being a Canadian, but I will say that many "Christian" political organizations trouble me. I have no problem with a politician who is a Christian or anyone expressing their views. I do have a problem with large organizations trying to, in my mind, manipulate/impose Christian "values" on non-Christians. Christianity is then percieved as threat to society....i.e. everyone must behave and act like us (and we wonder why non-Christians fight back!). I think we've left the realm that Christ intended.

Even if everyone decided to legislate "Christian" values and create a "Christian" nation, what have we created? Cultural "Christians" who are forced to live the way we want. Every decission made by the goverment is then seen as a "Christian"decission. Other countries would likely feel more threatend by Christianity because of the power it now wields.

I remember years ago hearing someone ask, "Who is a non-Christain more likely to listen to, the Pope from a position of power or mother Theresa from a position of service?"

I also remember another person asking "Is anybody even a little embarrassed that we ask to be allowed to pray in schools when we don't even pray in church?"

Steve

Post by **_TK** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:13 pm

anothersteve quoted:

"Is anybody even a little embarrassed that we ask to be allowed to pray in schools when we don't even pray in church?"

Jim cymbala said this in an message entitled "calling on the name of the Lord". it's available on sermonindex.net and is excellent.

TK

Post by **_Ely** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:49 pm

Woah!

Thanks Shoel. I'm only half-way through the first sermon in the series and already it's clear that this is going to be a very important teaching.

Thanks again.

Ely

Post by **_Derek** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:10 am

I just got the book for Christmas. I am really enjoying it. Thanks for the links.