"What is His name , and what is his Son's name" Pr

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:24 pm

I was listening to Steve's show and he said the Jesus was never referred to as the Son in the OT only the Word. Maybe i don't understand the context or maybe the son here is Israel but at face value it seems like the present tense and sounds like Jesus , what am i missing?

"Who has ascended into heaven,or decended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name , and what is his Son's name?"
Prov 30.4

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:05 pm

The Septuagint translated before the time of Christ rendered it as "What is the name of his children?"

The Hebrew word is "ben". That word is translated as "son" 2978 times in the King James translation of the Old Testament and as "children" 1568 times. So it is not certain that the word should be translated as "son" in Proverbs 30:4.

Post by **_kaufmannphillips** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:42 am

Hello, gentlemen,

The question may be rhetorical, meant to emphasize that no human (who might have a son) is adequate to accomplish such things. Seems like a normal rhetorical device in that culture, perhaps (cf., e.g., Numbers 23:19; Psalm 8:4; Jeremiah 49:18 ).

On the other hand, if God were supposed to be the object of the question, then the first portion (viz., what is his name?) would not have been a mystery to a Jewish audience, for they knew his revealed name (viz., the tetragrammaton).

Shalom,
Emmet

P.S.: edited once to add a qualifier....

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:02 am

Thanks guys for the responses. According to the Stone's edition of the Tanach the "son" is defined as Moses.
Their notes read "Solomon realized that he should not consider himself greater than Moses. Moses ascended to heaven to receive the Torah and bring it down to earth for Israel. Moses controlled the winds, Moses restricted the waters of the sea, Moses erected the tabernacle and as the Talmud explains. If not for the service of the Tabernacle and Torah the foundations of heaven and earth would not have been established."

All this is true but Moses was a conduit for God's power so does this qualify him to be referred to as God's son or is this a veiled reference to Jesus?
Maybe the word "son" here means servant or children or Israel but it's in the singular and God had many servants, even angels are.
Steve if you're out there i'd appreciate how you interpret this also.

Post by **_Paidion** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:50 am

Maybe the word "son" here means servant or children or Israel but it's in the singular

I don't know Hebrew, but my understanding is that the word may be considered either singular or plural.

The Septuagint translators translated it as a plural Greek word.
I am inclined to think that they would not have done that if its meaning was strictly singular.

Post by **_kaufmannphillips** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:24 pm

Hello, gentlemen,

I am not recalling an unusual usage of ben in the singular to express a plural (i.e., children), though it is possible that I am simply ignorant in this regard. Paidion, what gave you the impression that ben could be used in such a way?

There easily are other factors to account for the Septuagint's rendering. On the one hand, the Septuagint varies in different parts as to its literalness in translation. On the other hand, the Septuagint does not appear to always draw upon the same Hebrew text-type as that preserved in the Masoretic Text; at times, the Dead Sea Scrolls manuscripts appear to preserve features in common with the Septuagint. The business of textual criticism raised by this is a bit muddy, but it is possible that the Hebrew text underlying that particular passage simply read differently.

Shalom,
Emmet

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:54 pm

Steve if you read this i'd appreciate how you interpret this since you sound firm in your conviction that Jesus was never called the Son prior to his human birth.