God's mercy and justice

[Guest]

Last Friday Dave (Schoel) wrote:

- Homer's application of 1 Peter 2:6-8 to Todd and Emmet seemed to attack personally. The context of that passage equates those who stumble on the chief cornerstone as those who reject Christ as Messiah outright. Even if it is true of Todd and Emmet (they'll have to speak for themselves), that doesn't mean that the objections, questions and ideas they raise are of no value. We should stick to the issue at hand and leave the personal assessments up to Him who has the authority to judge. Since anyone can be misunderstood, I hope that Homer can clarify that he didn't mean it that way.

I'm a bit behind here. Dave is correct in that I in no way judge any man in the final sense. This is solely the prerogative of The Lord. My application of Romans 9:30-33 and 1 Peter 2:6-8 to the issue was intended to point out we are at an impasse in this discussion due to the cross of Christ, and because of this differing view, I see no possibility of any resolution.

Emmet does not believe Jesus is the Messiah or was resurrected. Todd believes Jesus life and death is an inspiring example. The passages of scripture both refer to faith in Christ. Saving faith is in Christ, in the efficacy of his life, death, and resurrection. Apart from this, there is no hope. We can not be perfect or good enough to ever be righteous in His sight by our own efforts.

If I am incorrect concerning the views of Emmet or Todd, please enlighten me.

Emmet wrote:

It is not necessary to view these statements as referring to immutable penalties; rather, they may be seen as warnings about the natural order of things. Sin naturally yields death - not as mere punishment, but as the result of withdrawing from life.

As for your second quotation, then: when one repents from sin, one has a new paymaster - and new wages, which are life.

And if your first quotation were an immutable law, then what room does that leave for substitution? For it states "you will surely die."

When Adam sinned, a death sentence was invoked on Adam and his posterity. As a result, all mankind faces suffering and death. Additionally, as a result of our own sins, we all face a second death, "the lake of fire".

Jesus, by His death and resurrection, has overcome the result of Adam's sin. All will be resurrected to life, but then the second death awaits. Through faith in Christ, in what He accomplished, we can escape the second death. Our works procure nothing but serve as proof we are part of "The Vine". "Apart from Me, you can do nothing."

Todd wrote:

Don't you believe that we literally owe God a debt?....a sin debt? The reality (as I see it) is that my sinfulness has offended a lot of people in my lifetime. And if it were possible to make it right I would need to make it right with each person individually. But, unfortunately, that is not possible. With few exceptions it can't be done, so I just need to make commitment, through faith in Christ and the help of the Holy Spirit to "sin no more." Christ is a third party that is said to pay off this "debt" but in reality the people I have offended see no difference in the damage I have caused.

The big (very big) problem with this thinking is the apparent failure to recognize that every time we offend or hurt someone, the person most offended is God! A commitment to "sin no more" is totally inadequate, and besides, we will sin again. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.

[mgarrett]

The big (very big) problem with this thinking is the apparent failure to recognize that every time we offend or hurt someone, the person most offended is God!

To say that God gets "offended" or "angry" or that He needs to "appease Himself" is to say that the Creator of the universe has human frailties. I believe that God is far above such things as this. To accuse Him of breaking one of His own commandments and murdering His own Son seems very unlikely to me. This takes us back to where this thread began - God's justice is about establishing righteousness and opposing human injustice.

Todd

[Guest]

To say that God gets "offended" or "angry" or that He needs to "appease Himself" is to say that the Creator of the universe has human frailties

.

So now you are saying that God doesn't get angry or offended? Are you sure about that bro?

To accuse Him of breaking one of His own commandments and murdering His own Son seems very unlikely to me.

Although I don't think that God murdered anyone, what do you do with Isaiah 53? What's your interpretation? (if you could show how you interpret it the way you do that would be good). It seems obvious from that passage that the Father had a very active role in what transpired.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief...

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied...

Who is the "He"???

[Guest]

we are at an impasse in this discussion due to the cross of Christ, and because of this differing view, I see no possibility of any resolution.

I thought this many posts ago. I really don't think we are getting anywhere here.

[Guest]

To say that God gets "offended" or "angry" or that He needs to "appease Himself" is to say that the Creator of the universe has human frailties. I believe that God is far above such things as this. To accuse Him of breaking one of His own commandments and murdering His own Son seems very unlikely to me. This takes us back to where this thread began - God's justice is about establishing righteousness and opposing human injustice.



God commanded the animals to be killed or sacrificed in the OT to cover sin. God allowed His Son to be sacrificed in the NT , knowing it would happen and in Isaiah 53 , Jesus is called a "sin offering" and Paul said Jesus became "sin for us."
If Jesus became either "sin for us" or a "sin offering" to whom is He offered?

"For the transgressions of my people , to whom the stroke was due" Isa 53.8
"But the Lord was pleased to crush him ,putting him to grief, IF HE WOULD RENDER HIMSELF as a GUILT OFFERING." 53.10

Isaiah says Jesus rendered himself a guilt offering , BUT TO WHOM?
ANSWER, HIS FATHER
To whom was the stroke due? Us, therefore it was due for PAST TRANSGRESSIONS and thus a substitutionary sacrifice resulting in forgiveness OF PAST SINS.

There is a book called "Don't blame God" which claims that in the OT these instances where God appears to be bloodthirsty , is really about Satan but since the people of the OT knew nothing about Satan the writers would use God when it really referred to the devil. But ultimately even if it were the devil that payment was made to , God still created everything and is the ultimate judge.

[Guest]

Todd, Ultimately God's goal is to destroy all evil in the universe and if he needed Jesus's sacrifice to help reach that goal then although the sacrifice of his blood may be unappealing, it's not because God has human frailties or because God is bloodthirsty but because this sacrifice is embedded in a long process that ultimately brings us to a so much greater good.
It's clear from Isaiah that this "sin offering" of Jesus was necessary to be an event to allow mankind to move forward by cleaning the slate.
We apparently don't need to know precisely why it had to be done the way it was , only to accept it and trust scripture.

[Guest]

The big (very big) problem with this thinking is the apparent failure to recognize that every time we offend or hurt someone, the person most offended is God! A commitment to "sin no more" is totally inadequate, and besides, we will sin again. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.



This is right on the mark.

[mgarrett]

Gentlemen,

First of all let me say that I truly do appreciate all of you. It is most obvious that you each have a great dedication to your faith in Christ and a willingness to share that with others. You are to be commended. Secondly, I want to let you know that I totally understand what you have been saying because it is the doctrine that I grew up with and heard my entire life. I am attempting to put these teachings into real-life examples and work through the mechanics of what actually happens in someone's heart. The verses themselves only give us a picture.

Having said that, let me offer another example which may serve as a bridge between what I have been saying and what you have been saying. I know that it won't resolve all the issues, but maybe some of them. Here goes....

Let's say that I am rude to my neighbor. This is sin. Two things happen. First, I have damaged my relationship with my neighbor and made him sad or upset. This can be considered a "sin debt" with my neighbor. It can be "paid back" if I act quickly and offer a sincere apology, but even then only part of the damage is repaired. The second thing that happens is that I offend my own conscience. I feel guilty. It can be said that a conscience is God at work in our heart. So to "offend" my conscience is akin to "offending" God. Jesus tells us that part of the work of the Holy Spirit is to convict the world of sin. This, I believe, is done through our conscience. So in this sense our "sin debt" with God is made real through the torment of our conscience which is God at work calling us to repentance. We are being punished in a very real way and it is a burden to us. So in being rude to our neighbor I reap what I sow - I end up with a damaged relationship and a guilty conscience. Both are burdens; you might call them "loans" from the bank that need to be paid back in order to be whole again. If you add up all these "loans" we have taken over the course of a lifetime, it will add up to a big "debt."

Now, as I said earlier, the debt we owe to those we have offended throughout our lifetime cannot be paid back because too much time has passed and we have fogotten the specifics of most of our sins anyway. We cannot right all of the wrongs. BUT, God does have an answer for the accululated "sin debt" that weighs upon our conscience. This burden can be lifted. God controls the conscience, for it is His work in us. To the extent we suffer through our conscience, it is deserved because it is a result of our own sin. But to the extent that Christ suffered, it is due not to any sin He committed but to the sinfulness of man. In the truest sense Christ suffered because of the sinfulness of man - it is the same kind of sinfulness of which we are all participants. Sinful men put him to death - a death filled with much suffering. God wants us to look upon Christ's suffering and allow it to replace that suffering we are experiencing in our own hearts due to our own sin. God wants us to have a "clean slate" and a clear conscience. He allows us to have this burden lifted. But it is essential that you believe that Christ's suffering is meant to replace that of your own for it to have its intended effect. It is in this way that Christ pays the "debt" for us. It is the debt of a guilty conscience that is paid off so that we can be set free to serve God.

Heb 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 10:1-2
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Imputed righteousness can also be thought of in this light. Due to our belief in Christ's sacrifice we are now able to enjoy a clear conscience which would otherwise only be had by a truly righteous One (i.e., Christ).

I know that each of you will say that I have left out the "after-life" aspect of all of this. I have done this on purpose so as not to get too off-track in this thread. I believe that Christianity is meant to have a life-changing impact on this life, so I have limited my discussions to this subject only.

Todd

[Guest]

Hi Todd,

Just one or two comments:

You wrote:

To say that God gets "offended" or "angry" or that He needs to "appease Himself" is to say that the Creator of the universe has human frailties. I believe that God is far above such things as this.

As a father of five, do you not get personally offended when someone is unjust to one of your kids? Why can’t God be afforded the same right?

for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. (Rom 12:19)

It may just be the carnal "papa-bear" mentallity in me, but I personally have a hard time not getting angry when my kid is treated badly.


You wrote:

Let's say that I am rude to my neighbor. This is sin. Two things happen. First, I have damaged my relationship with my neighbor and made him sad or upset. This can be considered a "sin debt" with my neighbor. It can be "paid back" if I act quickly and offer a sincere apology, but even then only part of the damage is repaired.

What if you’re rude to your neighbors’ kid? Do you not owe an apology to your neighbor as well as his kid?

If we are all Gods “offspring”, then when we offend each other, we offend God as well IMO.

[mgarrett]

As a father of five, do you not get personally offended when someone is unjust to one of your kids? Why can’t God be afforded the same right?

Christopher,

Yes, I do. But I am human. I prefer to believe that our God has such a great understanding of our frailties that He would only look upon him with pure love and desire reconciliation.

"....not willing that any would perish, but that all would come to repentance." (2 Pet 3:9)

Todd