The Church of Christ and necessity of Baptism

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_Evangelion
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Post by _Evangelion » Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:02 pm

Jesusfollower wrote:Follow my link and read through what John is saying and what the word says, men are the mouthpece for God, That is part of what the story of the Eunuch is saying 'lest some man guide me'.
Dude, the Ethiopian eunuch was baptised with water. :?
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_Father_of_five
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Post by _Father_of_five » Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:08 pm

Jesusfollower wrote:... all of your man made ritual is ridiculous, ....
Man-made??? Baptism is not a man-made ritual. It is ordained by God.

Todd
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_Paidion
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Post by _Paidion » Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:20 pm

...all of your man made ritual is ridiculous, if my conversion came in the desert before dieing of dehydration there is no water, in the words of Judge Judy, if it does not make any sense it probably is not true, God makes the decisions, not you, paridon look at that again it is saying water can do nothing. I think you are all addicted to ritual, and the way you have been doing things.


Are your personal attacks a substitute for rationality?

Have you ever been successful in convincing anyone of your point of view by means of attack rather than application of reason?

Is it necessary to express your frustration with reasoned responses by attacks?

Are you following the teachings of Jesus concerning your relations with others?
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Paidion
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"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald

_Jesusfollower
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Post by _Jesusfollower » Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:08 am

Paidion, what attacks? sorry you feel that way, or that I was unable to be more gentle, if it makes you feel good to stay with your position, cool. Of course not one of you have addressed Ephesians 4:4,5, one baptism. As the pinnacle of the Christian revelation, I think Eph. is plain straight forward statement. What am I talking about? there are seven books that have always been found in the same order, any time they have been found, Romans thru Thessalonians. They are the only ones that have always been found in the same order as they appear in our Bibles today. On further study, they are all addressed to the Church, with greetings from God the Father and Jesus our Lord. further study shows that II Timothy says all scripture is useful for doctrine, reproof and correction, when digging in further we see that the thrust of these book are just that in that order. Romans = doctrine, Corinthians = reproof, Galatians = correction, and so on again until Thessalonians which would be the final doctrine and it's main interest is in the appearing of our Lord Jesus to gather his Church. So what I am saying is that Ephesians is a doctrinal Epistle written and addressed directly to the Church, which points out there is one Baptism, not two. Put that together with the other text in Hebrews and Acts when the Lord said but(but), you will be baptized with holy spirit. That is all I am saying, Allyn yes understanding is an exercise, but I think God sort of thinks it is worth it, Blessed be God. And Blessed be all of you for your continuing deep thought. :)
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_Homer
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Post by _Homer » Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:57 am

Jesusfollower,

It is beyond question that the Church has always had and practiced, from the Day of Pentecost to this day, water baptism. There is also a baptism of the Spirit which some equate with receiving the Spirit. Not all agree. When Paul says "there is one baptism", this rules out any other. How can he be excluding baptism in water, which he himself practiced? Could it be that baptism in (or with) the Spirit and in water normatively occur on the same occasion, as was apparently the case with Jesus' own baptism? Could it be they are two sides of the same coin?

Note that in Ephesians 4:4-6 Paul lists a series of "there is one". He avers "there is one God and Father of all...". Do you then conclude that Jesus is not God?
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_Jesusfollower
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Post by _Jesusfollower » Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:22 am

No Homer, the Bible Concludes that Jesus is not the almighty God, but his Son, the last Adam. As it does everything else.

Differences Between God & Jesus

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/module ... le&sid=255
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_Allyn
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Post by _Allyn » Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:45 am

Jesusfollower wrote:No Homer, the Bible Concludes that Jesus is not the almighty God, but his Son, the last Adam. As it does everything else.

Differences Between God & Jesus

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/module ... le&sid=255
I wonder Mr. Follower, do you know anything about the Old Testament?

Isaiah 10:20-22
20 And it shall come to pass in that day
That the remnant of Israel,
And such as have escaped of the house of Jacob,
Will never again depend on him who defeated them,
But will depend on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
21 The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob,
To the Mighty God.
22 For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea,
A remnant of them will return;
The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Who is this Mighty God?

Isaiah 9:
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


So Mr. Follower, you see, the Christ whom you claim to follow is not only the Mighty God - He is also the everlasting Father - unles of course you are following a different master.

follower, are you really wanting to learn anything or are you only trying to show some ignorance?

The Spirit makes us Christlike, not weird
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_Jesusfollower
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Post by _Jesusfollower » Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:53 am

Mr. Allyn, I think you are the one doing the ignoring, which is the root word of ignorance, and yes I completely disregard the O/T(NOT).

Isaiah 9:6
“And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace….” (NIV)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1. Trinitarians should admit that this verse is translated improperly just from the fact that Jesus is never called the “Everlasting Father” anywhere else in Scripture. Indeed, Trinitarians correctly deny that Jesus is the “Everlasting Father.” It is a basic tenet of Trinitarian doctrine that Christians should “neither confound the Persons nor divide the Substance” (Athanasian Creed). Thus, if this verse is translated properly, then Trinitarian Christians have a real problem. However, the phrase is mistranslated. The word translated “everlasting” is actually “age,” and the correct translation is that Jesus will be called “father of the [coming] age.”

In the culture of the Bible, anyone who began anything or was very important to something was called its “father.” For example, because Jabal was the first one to live in a tent and raise livestock, the Bible says, “he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock” (Gen. 4:20). Furthermore, because Jubal was the first inventor of musical instruments, he is called, “the father of all who play the harp and flute” (Gen. 4:21). Scripture is not using “father” in the sense of literal father or ancestor in these verses, because both these men were descendants of Cain, and all their descendants died in the Flood. “Father” was being used in the cultural understanding of either one who was the first to do something or someone who was important in some way. Because the Messiah will be the one to establish the age to come, raise the dead into it, and rule over it, he is called “the father of the coming age.”

2. The phrase “Mighty God” can also be better translated. Although the word “God” in the Hebrew culture had a much wider range of application than it does in ours, the average reader does not know or understand that. Readers familiar with the Semitic languages know that a man who is acting with God’s authority can be called “god.” Although English makes a clear distinction between “God” and “god,” the Hebrew language, which has only capital letters, cannot. A better translation for the English reader would be “mighty hero,” or “divine hero.” Both Martin Luther and James Moffatt translated the phrase as “divine hero” in their Bibles. (For more on the flexible use of “God,” see the notes on Heb. 1:8).

3. A clear example that the word translated “God” in Isaiah 9:6 can be used of powerful earthly rulers is Ezekiel 31:11, referring to the Babylonian king. The Trinitarian bias of most translators can be clearly seen by comparing Isaiah 9:6 (el = “God”) with Ezekiel 31:11 (el = “ruler”). If calling the Messiah el made him God, then the Babylonian king would be God also. Isaiah is speaking of God’s Messiah and calling him a mighty ruler, which of course he will be.

The phrase translated “Mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6 in the NIV in the Hebrew, el gibbor. That very phrase, in the plural form, is used Ezekiel 32:21 where dead “heroes” and mighty men are said, by the figure of speech personification, to speak to others. The phrase in Ezekiel is translated “mighty leaders” in the NIV, and “the strong among the mighty” in the KJV and NASB. The Hebrew phrase, when used in the singular, can refer to one “mighty leader” just as when used in the plural it can refer to many “mighty leaders.”

4. The context illuminates great truth about the verse, and also shows that there is no justification for believing that it refers to the Trinity, but rather to God’s appointed ruler. The opening verse of the chapter foretells a time when “there will be no more gloom for those in distress.” All war and death will cease, and “every warrior’s boot…will be destined for burning” (v. 5). How will this come to pass? The chapter goes on: “for to us a child is born and to us a son is given” (v. 6). There is no hint that this child will be “God,” and reputable Trinitarian scholars will assert that the Jews of the Old Testament knew nothing of an “incarnation.” For them, the Messiah was going to be a man anointed by God. He would start as a child, which of course Yahweh, their eternal God, could never be. And what a great ruler this man would grow to be: “the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty Hero, Father of the Coming Age, Prince of Peace.” Furthermore, “he will reign on David’s throne (v. 7), which could never be said of God. God could never sit on David’s throne. But God’s Messiah, “the Son of David,” could (Matt. 9:27, et al). Thus, a study of the verse in its context reveals that it does not refer to the Trinity at all, but to the Messiah, the son of David and the Son of God.

Buzzard, pp. 45 and 51

Farley, pp. 47-49

Morgridge, pp. 105 and 106

Snedeker, pp. 397-403


:wink:
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_Allyn
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Post by _Allyn » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:00 pm

And there are also volumes written that say that Jesus is not God but the Bible continues to tell us different. I choose to believe God and you can continue to do your copy and paste of man's words.

Don't trip and hurt yourself.
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_Jesusfollower
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Post by _Jesusfollower » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:06 pm

It is not in the Bible, Everything you ever learned you learned from another man, contiue to ignore the scholarly path and you will believe what you will. My balance is fine thanks. :lol:
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