Heb 8:7-13

[Guest]

There is no doubt that servants (or slaves) of Christ will have to be corrected, too. It's only when we think that Jesus died primarily to get us forgiven and to "take our punishment for us on the cross" that we imagine that there is no need for correction.

Well, yes I believe that slaves of Christ will have to be corrected. However, I don’t connect that correction with a “purging” of sin in everlasting realms. The verse is simply not clear.

God isn't interested in merely "making a way for us to get to heaven" and go scott free concerning the condition of our hearts

While I believe that heaven/hell wasn’t the primary thought in God’s mind, I do believe that God is somewhat interested it.

Indeed, Jesus gave a parable about three servants (or slaves) all of which needed correction.

Well, yes again, slaves of Christ need correction. But eternal realms are never mentioned. It may in fact on this earth in our life when Christ disciplines us.

These verses are not very clear, and I would be careful about making dogmatic conjectures. (I’m not saying you are).

Loaves,

You seem to be saying that the "faithful" receive only rewards and the unfaithful receive only torture. I am not so sure that is the case. The verse does not say that at all. The "faithful," as you have said yourself, do not do all good, neither do the unfaithful do all bad.

I believe that the “unfaithful” will indeed receive their reward. But “reward” is not necessarily a good thing. I view “reward” as the remuneration for your deeds. Whether good or bad. The unfaithful are “rewarded” in punishment.

I have heard it said that when christians are judged God will only see Christ's righteousness.

I would like to make a statement here on what I believe. While our salvation is not by works (most of us agree), I believe God’s Judgment is according to works as we read in Revelation. For the Judgment Christ’s righteousness is not a garment we slip on. Our righteous acts are our clothing. However, we are not saved by works. “Judgment” and “Salvation” to me are two entirely different things. Since sinners are not clothed in any righteous acts, wouldn’t that pose a problem?

This is a desription of judgement day and says ALL the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. All the inhabitants include unbelievers who will learn righteousness in the LOF where Christ sends them on the last day or judgement day. They still must bow the knee to Christ and truely make him their Lord as well as repent and God can not be fooled by falsehoods. Rather then diminish Christ's sacrifice i see it as doing the opposite which is glorifying what He did through MERCY not by torturing people, FOR WHAT DID CHRIST SAY?

Brother, I see your concern. People who believe in everlasting punishment (as I do) are often labeled as “unmerciful” and “cruel” and “hateful” and “not glorifying God.” But, how does God get glory from unrepentant sinners? Unrepentant sinners bring God zero glory.

God is not fooled by falsehoods is true. I believe ALL people will bend the knee to God. I believe ALL people will learn righteousness (not necessarily <b><u>be</u></b> righteous). But none of these things are connected with heaven/hell. Yes, unbelievers will know who’s boss. They will know righteousness. But they will do it hell. They should have thought about their spiritual condition <b>before</b> they died.

He wants us to be LIKE HIM so if He tells us to be merciful THAT MEANS HE IS MERCIFUL.

God is slow to anger. God is slow to provocation. God will be merciful on whom He will have mercy. He is merciful and yet his mercy is not everlasting.

“Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people <b>which thou hast redeemed</b>: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.” – Exodus 15:13

“And shewing mercy unto thousands of <b>them that love me, and keep my commandments.</b>” – Exodus 20:6

When Israel (and this isn’t a good analogy) broke their covenant with God, He sent the Babylonians, He afflicted them, and He punished them. And, in fact, the covenant was never reestablished. Why should we, when we break our covenant with God, expect anything less? God hasn’t changed, has he?

Now, when I say these things, I may seem like a mean guy who wishes for everyone to go to hell. That is not me. I desire all men to be saved, just as God does. But God doesn’t force us to be saved (unless you’re Calvinist). Neither does He force us to go to heaven.

God bless you all,

[Guest]

God is slow to anger. God is slow to provocation. God will be merciful on whom He will have mercy. He is merciful and yet his mercy is not everlasting.

“Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.” – Exodus 15:13

“And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.” – Exodus 20:6

When Israel (and this isn’t a good analogy) broke their covenant with God, He sent the Babylonians, He afflicted them, and He punished them. And, in fact, the covenant was never reestablished. Why should we, when we break our covenant with God, expect anything less? God hasn’t changed, has he?

One thing i've learned from listening to Steve's recordings is that we ought to read the OT in the LIGHT of the NT and if anything appears to contradict then follow the NT. So God did'nt change but under the New Covenant His dealings with people did change because the New Covenant is different then the Old which has been abolished.
Therefore the charactor of God is revealed to us through Christ and if Christ TELLS us to love and to be merciful and to forgive then it would be irrational for Him to tell us that and then torture eternally his enemies after telling us to love them.
IT MAKES NO SENSE.
And the world can and will learn righteousness in the LOF and that most definetely GLORIFIES what Christ did because His MISSION was to be the savior OF THE WORLD not 5% of the world and not a REMNANT of the world but the world.
"Every tongue will say Christ is Lord" but no one can say Christ is Lord but by the HOLY SPIRIT. But if one has the HOLY SPIRIT they by definition they MUST BE part of the kingdom of God because the Holy Spirit is in the Kingdom of God.
And again i repeat in Rev 20 when unbelievers are in the LOF it never is stated they are tortured yet it is stated that the gates to NJ are always open and in Rev 22.17 the Spirit and the bride invite whosoever to partake from the water of life 5 VERSES before the end of the bible.
It does say in Rev 21 that unrepentent sinners "the dogs,idolators,whoremongers" will not be let in NJ which is true and in fact is an interesting statement because if the unrepentant sinner had no chance to repent it would'nt be necessary to make that statement at all because they are already in the LOF. So by mentioning their unrepentance IMHO this implies that they still can and should repent or why bother mentioning this at all. Obviously judging their unrepentance status means they still should repent to have an opportunity to enter the gates of NJ.

[Guest]

Millions maybe billions simply can not read the bible because it's not available. But Paul said "Christ WILL BE PREACHED TO EVERY MAN IN DUE TIME" Where and when will this be? Answer in the LOF.
God could send angels to every individual to personally deliver the gospel or send dreams to everyone but there is no evidence He has in general, but the way i understand the verses applying to people in the LOF it sounds to me that repentence is possible there although there are not many details given. And with regards to your previous statement that everyone would repent if they had no choice , first of all God can read the heart and knows true repentence and secondly why would'nt they have a choice since i'm sure God at some point would destroy the ungodly since evil will be detroyed in the universe eventually.

Like I said, I could quote Titus 2;

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 teaching us that having denied ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live discreetly, righteously and godly, in this present world,

I could argue that this verse proves all men get the chance to repent because the the grace of God that brings salvation has appered to all men.

[Guest]

Therefore the charactor of God is revealed to us through Christ and if Christ TELLS us to love and to be merciful and to forgive then it would be irrational for Him to tell us that and then torture eternally his enemies after telling us to love them.
IT MAKES NO SENSE.

STEVE7150,

I agree. This scripture in Matthew reveals God's true nature.

Matt 5:43-48
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If God expects that of us then he surely is that way himself. He says to bless them that curse you and do good to them that hate you. Does this describe the unrepentant? Does this describe the unfaithful?

Rom 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us

Todd

[Guest]

I disagree. If that were the case, there would be no reason God would or could raise that dead and then judge them, because they would have already paid for their sin by death. If you go to court and pay your fine, they aren't going to judge you after you have made restitution. Yet we are told we are going to be judged by what we have done in the body.

Sean,

There is one problem with this logic. Christians are going to be judged too. Paul says.....

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

So, if christians will be judged, who have received remission of sins, then why not the unjust who have made restitution through death?

Todd

I don't understand your point. If we make restitution for sins by death, then why do we need Christ?

Jesus seems to disagree anyway:

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Those who have done evil in the body have not paid this off by death, in fact they are raised to be judged for what they have done in their physical bodies during their life. This verse can actually be used by those who believe in soul sleep because how can your "soul" be punished in "hades" before you have even stood judgement?

[Guest]

Therefore the charactor of God is revealed to us through Christ and if Christ TELLS us to love and to be merciful and to forgive then it would be irrational for Him to tell us that and then torture eternally his enemies after telling us to love them.
IT MAKES NO SENSE.

STEVE7150,

I agree. This scripture in Matthew reveals God's true nature.

Matt 5:43-48
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If God expects that of us then he surely is that way himself. He says to bless them that curse you and do good to them that hate you. Does this describe the unrepentant? Does this describe the unfaithful?

Rom 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us

Todd

I don't see the point in any of these statements. Are you saying that God is like this until the point of judgement? As is seems the bible says (2 Peter 3:7-8)

Are you honestly saying that God never killed anyone for sin, never sent Jerusalem into exhile, didn't destroy Jerusalem in 70AD, didn't force the Jews to wander in the desert until all the those who wouldn't go into the promised land originally were dead, etc, etc. Yes, I can see how God is so merciful that He wouldn't judge anyone. (not)

I honestly don't understand how you can take all the positive aspects of God's character and downplay his wrath, as if it not that big of a deal.

2 Peter 3 tells us that the world is reserved for fire and the reason God is patient to the ungodly is so that they come to repentance, yet your conclution seems to be that they don't have to come to repentance? Because they have eternity in the LOF to change their mind on their own terms instead of God's terms?

This seems to make God a bad economist. I mean, why patiently wait for anyone to come to repentance, if they all eventually repent anyway.

I mean, I could be all wrong about this but is seems that God has always been gracious to us even though were have been rebellious against Him, but God has also shown His wrath after multiple warnings, but it eventually does come. If God can't judge people this way because of the passages you cite then it seems that He has already broken His own policy every time He has judged anyone in the past, not to mention the flood. Was he merciful then? Did He 'do good to them that hated' Him?

[Guest]

2 Peter 3 tells us that the world is reserved for fire and the reason God is patient to the ungodly is so that they come to repentance, yet your conclution seems to be that they don't have to come to repentance? Because they have eternity in the LOF to change their mind on their own terms instead of God's terms?

This seems to make God a bad economist. I mean, why patiently wait for anyone to come to repentance, if they all eventually repent anyway.

I mean, I could be all wrong about this but is seems that God has always been gracious to us even though were have been rebellious against Him, but God has also shown His wrath after multiple warnings, but it eventually does come. If God can't judge people this way because of the passages you cite then it seems that He has already broken His own policy every time He has judged anyone in the past, not to mention the flood. Was he merciful then? Did He 'do good to them that hated' Him?

I fail to see why coming to repentence in the LOF means "on your own terms?" As Paidion has pointed out Gehenna is not a place anyone would be on their own terms. And perhaps the point of this disagreement is that following Christ is a blessing and unbelievers are not gaining anything by avoiding Christ (assumming they even know him) but they remain slaves to sin. They are to be pitied , yet some make it sound as if they are benefitting now.
Yes God has reserved for fire or judgement and everyone gets resurrected (John 5.29) for judgement "KRISIS" which does not mean damnation (sorry KJV) and the way Christ described Gehenna no one is doing anything on their own terms. And yes God has wrath and sinners are storing up God's wrath against themselves but not His eternal wrath. He did destroy people and He very well may still destroy unrepentent sinners at some point but that's a vast difference then the grotesque image of eternally torturing people. We look at Hitler as a monster for torturing people for a few years but don't blink an eye at the thought of God torturing people for eternity.
What am i missing here.

As far as the Titus verses go to me again it's God that is revealed not the gospel per se but maybe it's just me.

[Guest]

Lam 3:22-24
22 The steadfast love of the LORD never ceases;
his mercies never come to an end;

Yes, I believe God is merciful. But certainly He is not merciful to all peoples at all times at all situations. It simply means His general nature, His general inclination is to be merciful. The verse doesn’t say He is merciful to everybody in every situation.

His love never ceases, but the verse makes no mention of whom His love is directed to.

God will not be merciful to Satan, will he? When He casts him into the lake of fire is that showing mercy to Satan for deceived countless people throughout the centuries. No, Satan has received his just reward. His reward is everlasting fire.

“Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” – Jude 1:7

What’s more, it would contradict verses that demonstrate God’s conditional mercy.

One thing i've learned from listening to Steve's recordings is that we ought to read the OT in the LIGHT of the NT and if anything appears to contradict then follow the NT. So God did'nt change but under the New Covenant His dealings with people did change because the New Covenant is different then the Old which has been abolished.

I also agree with Steve. But what have I said that contradicts the NT? Does equating covenant breakers of the OT with coveneant breakers of the NT serve as a contradiction to NT principles. I don’t think so.

Therefore the charactor of God is revealed to us through Christ and if Christ TELLS us to love and to be merciful and to forgive then it would be irrational for Him to tell us that and then torture eternally his enemies after telling us to love them. IT MAKES NO SENSE.

Christ is not something we want Him to be. We are not talking about what He should do or could do. We are talking about what He does do. And Christ said some pretty hard things. Many MANY times Christ said that He was merciful, but Jerusalem didn’t receive Him. Afterwards He speaks of everlasting punishment and separation from Himself. It makes plenty sense.

And the world can and will learn righteousness in the LOF and that most definetely GLORIFIES what Christ did because His MISSION was to be the savior OF THE WORLD not 5% of the world and not a REMNANT of the world but the world.

Yes, unrepentant sinners will glorify God by learning righteousness. But it never speaks of heaven/hell.

God’s “mission” was to be “savior of the world.” Yes that is a correct statement. But, obviously God’s plan is sometimes not fulfilled. Otherwise, we would be Calvinistic robots.

"Every tongue will say Christ is Lord" but no one can say Christ is Lord but by the HOLY SPIRIT.

I see no biblical basis for that statement. Yes, every tongue will confess. They will genuinely say that He is Lord. But they will do it in hell. All lawbreakers, Christ said, will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven,

And again i repeat in Rev 20 when unbelievers are in the LOF it never is stated they are tortured yet it is stated that the gates to NJ are always open and in Rev 22.17 the Spirit and the bride invite whosoever to partake from the water of life 5 VERSES before the end of the bible. It does say in Rev 21 that unrepentent sinners "the dogs,idolators,whoremongers" will not be let in NJ which is true and in fact is an interesting statement because if the unrepentant sinner had no chance to repent it would'nt be necessary to make that statement at all because they are already in the LOF. So by mentioning their unrepentance IMHO this implies that they still can and should repent or why bother mentioning this at all. Obviously judging their unrepentance status means they still should repent to have an opportunity to enter the gates of NJ.

We have always said that the book of Revelation can be interpreted symbolically. Sinners will indeed be kept outside the gates. But we dare not rationalize something that is not found in scripture. For all we know, the LOF may be in close proximity to the NJ. Who knows! Nowhere does it say that these sinners will repent.

Steve7150,

I agree. This scripture in Matthew reveals God's true nature.

Matt 5:43-48
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If God expects that of us then he surely is that way himself. He says to bless them that curse you and do good to them that hate you. Does this describe the unrepentant? Does this describe the unfaithful?

Yes God will do good to unrepentant sinners, but He never mentions to what extent and if that is projected into heavenly realms.

Yes God has reserved for fire or judgement and everyone gets resurrected (John 5.29) for judgement "KRISIS" which does not mean damnation (sorry KJV) and the way Christ described Gehenna no one is doing anything on their own terms. And yes God has wrath and sinners are storing up God's wrath against themselves but not His eternal wrath.

“Aion” can mean “on and on.” I don’t see what the problem is? Many, many, many times Christ is so redundant it’s not funny anymore! “Everlasting,” “Everlasting” echoes off the walls of the Bible. It’s so clear.

He did destroy people and He very well may still destroy unrepentent sinners at some point but that's a vast difference then the grotesque image of eternally torturing people. We look at Hitler as a monster for torturing people for a few years but don't blink an eye at the thought of God torturing people for eternity.

Please explain yourself. Define: “Destroy people.”

I confidently believe God will punish sinners with “everlasting” fire. Why? Because He said so.

[Guest]

We've had enough of this nonsense that the Greek word krisis means the same thing as the English word crises so therefore that's what the New Testament writers meant when they used it. Frequently it is most obviously used to mean judgement or condemnation. It was used as a type of a court of justice among the Jews before the Roman government was established that had the power of life and death and punished criminals by strangling or beheading. (I suppose for the criminal you could say that was a crises!)

I would suggest if you have a Wigram's Greek concordance, you substitute the English word crises everywhere the Greek word krisis is translated into English. Read each passage and you will see you repeatedly come up with nonsense

[Guest]

I confidently believe God will punish sinners with “everlasting” fire. Why? Because He said so.

I do too. But this is the whole issue....what exactly does that mean?

Todd