Resurrection and Judgment

[Guest]

I would agree with you that it would be more merciful and just for God to cease striving with a stubborn person who refused to repent, and to allow them to cease to exist. What is hard for me to imagine (although it may be true), is that any sane person, confronted with the truth, would choose such an option. As you say in your signature "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

If a person were deceived about the truth about God and His love and mercy, or if a person were deceived about the end results of sin and rebellion, would not God reveal the truth to such a person? Confronted with the truth, would not such a person (if sane) choose the good over the evil, choose light over darkness? If the person were not sane, would God not heal him/her?

It seems that Jesus/John said this is exactly what people do:

John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Not only that, Jesus purposely withheld the meaning of His teachings by speaking in parables:

Mark 4:10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that
‘ Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’

While it is unclear exactly why Jesus did this, even so He did withhold the very thing needed to forgive sins from people. It seems that this was part of God's judgment in some way. But the point still remains that Gods character is one of love, one that includes an aspect of judgment that is hard to understand.

Sean,

I agree that if you look at a small piece of God's working with people it may look like He allows us to remain in our ignorance and seems to purposely withhold truth from us. If that was the end of the matter we might agree that God's ways seem unfair. Why would He harden someones heart so they wouldn't repent? Why would He allow us to be decieved by Satan or our own lusts when He could open our eyes to see the truth?

The question is, will this remain the case in the ages to come? I believe the answer is no.

Why did God allow mankind to go ~4000 years before sending the Messiah?

Why, before that, was His dealings mainly with the Jewish?

Why, even now, is God allowing the fate of those who have not heard the gospel to rest in the hands of men when there are more effective ways to get the message out?

Is the Bible not speaking truth when it says God wants all to repent?

Why would God make the path to life so difficult, so counter to our natural tendencies?

My personal belief is that God has a plan for the ages that, if you just look at what is happening in the present age, makes it look like God does NOT want all to repent. Like He is actually favoring certain people over others.



Rom 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
Eph 1:8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
Eph 1:9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
Eph 1:10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Eph 1:12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Eph 3:8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,
Eph 3:9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;
Eph 3:10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.
Eph 3:11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,
Eph 3:12 in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.


Sorry for the long digression. I know this way of thinking may seem so foreign, so counter to what we are used to thinking. It has taken me several years to feel comfortable with this different worldview.

Byt what if it is true! Wouldn't it be glorious!

Mike

[Guest]

Hi Todd,

You wrote:

Christopher,

But what is the purpose for punishing them first? If they are to be annihilated why not just let death have it's final say? Why resurrect them only to punish them and then annihilate them. This makes no sense.

Perhaps not…but I would not say so universally. There are many things that may make complete sense to you that make no sense to me whatsoever and vice versa. To me, it makes complete sense to me that God would do this for the sake of justice for those wronged. Although I may forgive someone for killing my child, I personally would still demand justice be done in a “life for life” like manner. The fact is that many have gone to their deaths not facing penalties for their crimes.

Heb 10:30
"Vengeance is Mine; I will repay," says the Lord.
NKJV


Hi Mike,

You wrote:

Chris,

I would agree with you that it would be more merciful and just for God to cease striving with a stubborn person who refused to repent, and to allow them to cease to exist. What is hard for me to imagine (although it may be true), is that any sane person, confronted with the truth, would choose such an option. As you say in your signature "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

You may be right. But I think truth can only make someone free insofar as it is embraced. Someone can know the truth, yet reject it. I think the Pharisees were of this class. If indeed we are free will agents, I don’t know that God is going to get everyone He wants and deserves.


You wrote:

If a person were deceived about the truth about God and His love and mercy, or if a person were deceived about the end results of sin and rebellion, would not God reveal the truth to such a person? Confronted with the truth, would not such a person (if sane) choose the good over the evil, choose light over darkness? If the person were not sane, would God not heal him/her?

I think the very nature of rebellion itself is knowing the truth and premeditatively acting in opposition to it. This doesn’t seem to be insanity to me, just hard hearted-ness.


You wrote:

I realize we are (or should I say: I am) in speculation mode. One thing that keeps me thinking along these lines is the verses:


Eph 3:20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us,
Eph 3:21 to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.


I can imagine and ask for God to bring all to repentance, to finally save all people. (And I know He desire this too, cf: 2 Pet. 3:9, 1 Tim. 2:4). If I can imagine and ask for it, and He wants it too, and He is able to do abundantly more than what I ask or think, perhaps it will come true.

Wouldn't that be awesome!

Amen! That would be awesome and I could hope for such a thing as well. I just don’t know if that is what is revealed to us as truth.

Rom 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Rom 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
Rom 11:34 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?
Rom 11:35 Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?
Rom 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Mike

The problem I keep bumping into here regarding universal reconciliation is, again, the character of God He Himself has revealed in scripture. The language He uses in many places sounds to me that He so much wants, commands, and even begs everyone to repent and be reconciled to Him, but not all will and therefore will be judged. The language of destruction for the wicked seems to be a very prominent theme throughout scripture.

But just between you and me, my hope is that somehow God has a surprise for all of us up His sleeve and everyone will be saved.

[Guest]

As for your quote from Fudge's paper, he seems to proceed with his reasoning on the assumption that "aiōnios" means "eternal". It never does.

I realize that this is your opinion of the word aionios, however, many scholars disagree with you, in your opinion that the word never means forever. (Edward Fudge as well, himself a scholar who has a masters in biblical languages).

You have posed some interesting points though, that I will have to ponder a bit.

I am personally fine with all of the following definitions, depending on the context that the word is found (especially the Vines definition):

Vines-
"-describes duration, either unefined, but not endless, asi in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2 (translated before the world began); or undefined because endless as in Romans 16:26 and other places."

Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Strongs:
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

NASB Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:
αἰώνιος
aiōnios; from G165; agelong, eternal: - eternal (66), eternity (1), forever (1).


God bless,

[Guest]

I realize that this is your opinion of the word aionios, however, many scholars disagree with you, in your opinion that the word never means forever. (Edward Fudge as well, himself a scholar who has a masters in biblical languages).


But the truth is that bible scholars are human and the great majority have been raised in the school of eternal torment so it's unatural for them to see "aionios" in any other way then how their bibles have been using it. I think the word originated with Plato and if i remember correctly i don't think he used it to mean eternal.
Rotherham's bible translates it as age-abiding and Youngs as ages upon ages.

[Guest]

The problem I keep bumping into here regarding universal reconciliation is, again, the character of God He Himself has revealed in scripture.

Christopher,

The problem I have with the traditional view and the annihilation view is that death still has a big sting and Satan is a big victor in either case.

1 Cor 15: 51-57
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." 55 "Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Todd

[Guest]

Hi Chris,

You may be right. But I think truth can only make someone free insofar as it is embraced. Someone can know the truth, yet reject it. I think the Pharisees were of this class. If indeed we are free will agents, I don’t know that God is going to get everyone He wants and deserves.


I think the very nature of rebellion itself is knowing the truth and premeditatively acting in opposition to it. This doesn’t seem to be insanity to me, just hard hearted-ness.

Yet there was this Pharisee, named Paul, who was rudely interrupted on the way to Damascus. He sure changed his tune rather quickly.
I agree that truth needs to be embraced to set one free. And you may be right that there are some who know the truth but act against it anyway. But even in acting against the truth I think they are deceiving themselves, thinking they will get away with it.

I think of smokers, who continue to smoke even though most if not all believe in the relationship between smoking and many dangerous health conditions. Once the cancer develops most, if not all 'repent'. (Although at this point the addiction may be so bad they continue smoking).

Anyway, I am hopeful that God will be patient, persistent, and get all He deserves. I am not ready to say I am convinced of this, but I am very hopeful after having studied this for a few years now.

The problem I keep bumping into here regarding universal reconciliation is, again, the character of God He Himself has revealed in scripture. The language He uses in many places sounds to me that He so much wants, commands, and even begs everyone to repent and be reconciled to Him, but not all will and therefore will be judged. The language of destruction for the wicked seems to be a very prominent theme throughout scripture.

But just between you and me, my hope is that somehow God has a surprise for all of us up His sleeve and everyone will be saved.

If you wanted to keep that just between you and me you probably should have sent a PM

Regarding the judgments and the character of God, I agree that there are many scriptures that have to be addressed. It is not always clear to me in reading the scriptures whether the judgment in mind is before death, after death but before resurrection, or after resurrection. And if after the resurrection, does the judgment preclude the possibility to repent?

I think of my own experience with suffering the consequences of my actions. It was quite painful. Extremely painful. I went through a period of bargaining with God, promising to do better if He would only undo the consequences of my actions. (He didn't!) Then I went through a period of depression, giving up all hope life would get better. Eventually, I started looking for ways to make changes in my life to come into line with what God indicated was best. My life did not get better at once, but over the years I have grown to trust in the goodness of God and enjoyed the walk with Him.

It seems to me not at all unreasonable to think this same pattern could work in a judgment after death. Life's actions have consequences. People will deeply regret their poor choices. Deeply! Yet God may just allow them to learn and grow and repent, and become more like His Son.

I hope so, anyway. It seems consistent with what I read in scripture, it seems consistent with my own experience, and I cannot think of anything that would bring more glory to God then to one day have all His creatures praising His glorous name.

BTW: I very much appreciate your approach to dialogue. You seem humble and open, having strong convictions yet not dogmatic. I enjoy the conversation! Thanks!

Mike

[Guest]

I realize that this is your opinion of the word aionios, however, many scholars disagree with you, in your opinion that the word never means forever. (Edward Fudge as well, himself a scholar who has a masters in biblical languages).


But the truth is that bible scholars are human and the great majority have been raised in the school of eternal torment so it's unatural for them to see "aionios" in any other way then how their bibles have been using it. I think the word originated with Plato and if i remember correctly i don't think he used it to mean eternal.
Rotherham's bible translates it as age-abiding and Youngs as ages upon ages.

We are all human and our interpretation of the word will be guided to some extent by our presuppositions. It's not as if Universalists have the market cornered on objectivity (any more than anyone else).

"Ages unto ages" does not place a limit on the term as far as I can tell. It is an undefined amount of time in and of itself. I don't see why one can't come to some determination of time by the context in which the word is used. Like Vines says:

"-describes duration, either undefined, but not endless, asi in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2 (translated before the world began); or undefined because endless as in Romans 16:26 and other places."

My understanding is also that Thayer was himself a Unitarian Universalist, so there goes that argument! His definition is much like Vines (see above post).

God bless!

[Guest]

We are all human and our interpretation of the word will be guided to some extent by our presuppositions. It's not as if Universalist have the market cornered on objectivity (any more than anyone else).

True Derek but it appears Paul and John have the market cornered on "all."

1 Tim 2.4 "God will have ALL to be saved"
1 Tim 2.6 Ransom for ALL is testified in due time
Eph 1.11 God works ALL after the council of His will
John 12.47 Jesus came to save ALL
John 4.42 Jesus is the Savior of the world
1 John 4.14 Jesus is the Savior of the world
John 12.32 Jesus draws ALL to himself
Heb 7.25 Jesus is able to save to the uttermost
Col 1.15 Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of ALL creation
Rom 5.15 In Adam ALL condemned, in Christ ALL live
1 Cor 15.22 In Adam ALL die , in Christ ALL live
Eph 1.10 ALL come into him in the fullness of times
Rom 11.26 ALL Israel will be saved
Acts 3.20 Restitution of ALL
Luke 2.10 Jesus will bring joy to ALL people
Heb 8.11 ALL will know God
Titus 2.11 Grace has appeared to ALL
Col 1.20 ALL reconciled to God
1 Cor 4.5 All shall have the praise of God
Eph 4.10 Jesus will fill ALL things
Rev 5.13 ALL creation praising God
1 Cor 15.28 God will be ALL in ALL
Rev 21.5 ALL things made new
John 3.35 ALL has been given into his hand
1 Tim 4.10 Jesus is the Savior of ALL
Psalms 65.2 ALL flesh will come to God
Isa 25.6 Lord makes a feast for ALL people

[Guest]

Hi Todd,

Christopher,

The problem I have with the traditional view and the annihilation view is that death still has a big sting and Satan is a big victor in either case.

1 Cor 15: 51-57
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." 55 "Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I would not say that Satan is the big victor. The author of Hebrews says:

Heb 2:14-15
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
NKJV

There is no sting of death for the believer. Paul was a believer.

P.S. the prophesy in vs. 51 had it's fulfillment in my kids. I know, I was there not sleeping and certainly changing.

[Guest]

Hi Mike,

BTW: I very much appreciate your approach to dialogue. You seem humble and open, having strong convictions yet not dogmatic. I enjoy the conversation! Thanks!

Likewise.

I look forward to our upcoming Camas meetings. I hope your as excited as I am.