God's mercy and justice

[Guest]

A convenient place, "not necessarily in this lifetime."

If it is not in this lifetime, how is it "available to everyone on an equal basis"?




When Christ raises the dead Emmet, and those not found in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire. That's what i think is the purpose of the LOF, you can see a thread about it under "alternative views of hell."

[Guest]

The word "remission" is commonly used today to describe a cancer that was once active in someone's body that has now gone away. Usually it is because some doctor has prescribed a regimen of procedures such as chemical or radiation therapy that cures the cancer. The patient is healed; the cancer is gone.

This same word is used several times also in the KJV of the New Testament to describe sin which is also a cancer-like condition (metaphorically speaking) which invades our body and brings suffering and heartache both to ourselves and others. We need to be cured; we need a Physician.

Matt 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mark 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luke 1:77
To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

Luke 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Rom 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Heb 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Other translators of the New Testament may have clouded the true meaning of this word by translating it differently.

Our Physician also prescibes a regimen. In this case it has both procedures and medicine. The first procedure is to look upon Christ's death (the shedding of blood) which serves to strip away our insensitivity to sin. Other procedures are prayer and spending time in God's word. The medicine is the Holy Spirit which works internally to purge sin from our bodies.

The point here is that Christ, our Great Physician, came to bring remission of sins - to remove the cancer-like condition from our lives - so that we can be a blessing to others and enjoy God's spiritual blessings in our lives. To be "made whole" is to have a life where sin is in remission.

Todd

Just to offer a little balance.

aphesis (translated as remission, forgiveness)

Thayers:
1) release from bondage or imprisonment
2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

Vines
Remmision: a dismissal, release. Is used of the forgivness of sins...

The first procedure is to look upon Christ's death (the shedding of blood) which serves to strip away our insensitivity to sin.

In your view is Christ's death even neccessary? What I mean is, does one have to look upon His death in order to "strip away our insensitivity to sin". What if someone is already sensitized to sin? I can't really ask if they'll be saved, because we mean two diiferent things when we say "saved", but will they "be a blessing to others and enjoy God's spiritual blessings in our lives"? (which is what you think salvation is if I'm not mistaken).

[Guest]

Hello, Homer,

Thank you for your response.

Quote: If there is a penalty that is absolutely imposed, without judicial discretion.

There is. "The day you eat of the tree you will surely die." "For the wages of sin is death." This is an immutable law.

It is not necessary to view these statements as referring to immutable penalties; rather, they may be seen as warnings about the natural order of things. Sin naturally yields death - not as mere punishment, but as the result of withdrawing from life.

As for your second quotation, then: when one repents from sin, one has a new paymaster - and new wages, which are life.

And if your first quotation were an immutable law, then what room does that leave for substitution? For it states "you will surely die."


Shlamaa,
Emmet

[Guest]

In your view is Christ's death even neccessary?

1 Cor 15:12-22
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Derek,

The answer is yes. Had Christ not conquered death we would have no hope of the resurrection.

But also, His death serves as a constant reminder of the devastating consequences of sin. This is why we practice the Lord's supper which serves as a reminder...."this do in remembrance of me." We should be mindful of it daily.

1 Cor 11:26
For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Todd

[Guest]

The Bible is full of metaphors. In regards to our need for salvation the Bible tells us that.....

We are in bondage..............and need to be delivered
We have closed hearts.........and need open hearts
We are blinded....................and need to see
We are dead.......................and need new life
We are sheep gone astray...and need the Shepard
We are lost.........................and need to be found
We hunger and thirst...........and need the Bread of Life and Living Water
We are captives..................and need Liberty
We are branches without sustenance.....and need to grafted into the Vine

Isn't it just possible that the following is also a metaphor:

We are debtors..................and need someone to pay our debt for us

All of these statements are true metaphorically speaking, but perhaps taking them literally leads to wrong conclusions.

Todd

[Guest]

The Bible is full of metaphors. In regards to our need for salvation the Bible tells us that.....

We are in bondage..............and need to be delivered
We have closed hearts.........and need open hearts
We are blinded....................and need to see
We are dead.......................and need new life
We are sheep gone astray...and need the Shepard
We are lost.........................and need to be found
We hunger and thirst...........and need the Bread of Life and Living Water
We are captives..................and need Liberty
We are branches without sustenance.....and need to grafted into the Vine

Isn't it just possible that the following is also a metaphor:

We are debtors..................and need someone to pay our debt for us

All of these statements are true metaphorically speaking, but perhaps taking them literally leads to wrong conclusions.

Todd

Do you think that someone thinks that the above are really sheep? Or that they really just want something to drink? No, of course not.

Everyone realizes that being a debtor is metaphorical (we don't owe God money), it's what the metaphor means that we disagree on. No one is taking it literally.

[Guest]

Everyone realizes that being a debtor is metaphorical (we don't owe God money), it's what the metaphor means that we disagree on. No one is taking it literally.

Derek,

Don't you believe that we literally owe God a debt?....a sin debt? The reality (as I see it) is that my sinfulness has offended a lot of people in my lifetime. And if it were possible to make it right I would need to make it right with each person individually. But, unfortunately, that is not possible. With few exceptions it can't be done, so I just need to make commitment, through faith in Christ and the help of the Holy Spirit to "sin no more." Christ is a third party that is said to pay off this "debt" but in reality the people I have offended see no difference in the damage I have caused.

Now, I will agree that Christ's death helps me to know God's love for me and that even though I have offended others His love for me is unabated. This gives me comfort, strength and courage to do better.

The reality is that money can literally be debited and credited, but sin cannot. I think this metaphor serves to give us a picture of a "clean slate" or a new start - just like becoming debt free in our personal finances serves to lift burdens and make new beginnings.

So, does Christ's death literally pay off a debt? I don't believe so.

Todd

[Guest]

Don't you believe that we literally owe God a debt?....a sin debt?

I am not aware of using this phrase in our dialogue. The only place that the bible mentions sin as a debt is in the Lord's Prayer. (and there the actual word is debt).

I think that the bible uses "commercial" language (debt, redeem, ransom, price, etc..) to show that a price had to be paid for our redemption; something had to be given. Namely the blood of Christ (Col. 1:14).

The reality is that money can literally be debited and credited, but sin cannot. I think this metaphor serves to give us a picture of a "clean slate" or a new start - just like becoming debt free in our personal finances serves to lift burdens and make new beginnings

This is exactly how I interpret the metaphor (as do most people). We have offended God, and become separated from Him as a result, (Is. 59:2). In order to retstore fellowship, and give us a "clean slate" with God, Christ had to die (He paid a price). Now we are reconciled to God, (obiviously implying that we were separated in the first place), have forgivness through His blood, (Col. 1:14). Now we are forgiven, and our trespasses are no longer "imputed to us", but the "righteousness of God" is (II Cor. 5:18-21).

[Guest]

So, does Christ's death literally pay off a debt? I don't believe so.


I could'nt disagree more Todd, we most certainly owe God a debt. He created us, gave us everything we have , commanded us not to sin and we violated his law. We owe Him big time. God has every moral right to destroy us,or punish us to obtain justice yet He sent His Son to pay the sin debt for us.

"She will bear a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." Matt 1.21

"Their sins" of the past need forgiveness ,yet God's law and justice demands equal payment for the sins of the world, thus the sacrifice of Jesus. That's God's response toward His creation. In the OT ,God used the tabernacle as a picture of Jesus and used Israel as a picture of the world and there was no unconditional forgiveness of sins. A sacrifice was required , because that's God's way and it included blood.

[Guest]

I could'nt disagree more Todd, we most certainly owe God a debt. He created us, gave us everything we have...

Steve,

Of course I am thankful to God for all the many blessings I have been given.

You and Derek are not talking about the same thing that I am. I am saying that my sinfulness has offended many people. Metaphorically speaking, I owe a big "sin debt" to a lot of people. It cannot be paid back. The wrongs cannot be righted. While Christ's death does give me great confidence that God loves me anyway in spite of it all, the damage still remains.

What we all need is to be set on a new path where we don't make the same mistakes. You quoted the scripture that says that Christ will save us from our sins. I agree - He does so by working internally and giving us a new life where the sin is in remission (as I said in a previous post).

Todd