God's mercy and justice

[_Derek]

The idea behind SA is that throughout our lifetime we have committed sins and accumulated a "sin debt" that must be paid, and that Christ's death pays that debt. But, what practical thing would that accomplish? Would that correct the wrongs that you have done? No, the damage caused by your past sins would still remain. What's done is done. Nothing changes. Christ's death is devalued.

This is why, I believe, the writer of Hebrews said that it was impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins (Heb 10:4), because the focus of that ritual was on past sins and what's done is done. But the [better] sacrifice of Chirst is about taking away sins not yet committed so that good things replace them.

I know I said I wouldn't post again, but I can't help but comment on this, because again, what you are saying is flatly contradicted in the bible. Not only in the language put forth in Rom. 5:8-10 quoted above, but also in the same chapter you are quoting from Hebrews.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

However, if Christ's death serves to change your life so that you put away your sinfulness, if it brings about repentance and new birth, if it causes you to be a blessing to others, if it brings peace and joy in your heart, then it has great meaning and accomplishes great things

.

His death does this too (see 1Pet. 2:24; Gal. 2:20-where both ideas are present), but that's clearly not all. You are interpreting all of the passages with this paradigm and it just doesn't work biblically! You have simply ignored all of the relevant texts, and asserted that they can be interpreted another way. Well...How?

[_Derek]

One problem I have with the idea that forgiveness is obtained through the payment of a debt is that it doesn't make sense. If I owe money to someone, and they forgive the debt, then no payment is required. But if the debt is paid, even by someone else, then the debt is not forgiven, it is paid. Therefore, payment and forgiveness are exclusive.

Todd, it is real forgiveness if the offended party pay the debt Himself.

Here's an analogy that might help. If someone breaks a lamp in my home, and I say "that's alright, I forgive you, just go out a buy me another", well, that's not forgiveness. But if I tell him I forgive Him and go purchase a new lamp myself, repairing the damage done, then it's real forgiveness and restoration. He is forgiven, and the damage is repaired.

[Guest]

Todd, it is real forgiveness if the offended party pay the debt Himself.

Here's an analogy that might help. If someone breaks a lamp in my home, and I say "that's alright, I forgive you, just go out a buy me another", well, that's not forgiveness. But if I tell him I forgive Him and go purchase a new lamp myself, repairing the damage done, then it's real forgiveness and restoration. He is forgiven, and the damage is repaired.

Derek,

That's a good example. But if I sin against my neighbor, it is my neighbor who is offended. Christ is a third party who is said to pay the debt. It doesn't fit your example.

Todd

[_Derek]

Todd, it is real forgiveness if the offended party pay the debt Himself.

Here's an analogy that might help. If someone breaks a lamp in my home, and I say "that's alright, I forgive you, just go out a buy me another", well, that's not forgiveness. But if I tell him I forgive Him and go purchase a new lamp myself, repairing the damage done, then it's real forgiveness and restoration. He is forgiven, and the damage is repaired.

Derek,

That's a good example. But if I sin against my neighbor, it is my neighbor who is offended. Christ is a third party who is said to pay the debt. It doesn't fit your example.

Todd

He is God...Todd. (Sorry couldn't pass up the rhyme!)

There are two parties God, and man. I don't know if you believe in the trinity or not, so this point may not hold water, but according to trinitarian theology, there are two parties (granted one has three persons!).

[Guest]

I know I said I wouldn't post again, but I can't help but comment on this, because again, what you are saying is flatly contradicted in the bible. Not only in the language put forth in Rom. 5:8-10 quoted above, but also in the same chapter you are quoting from Hebrews.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Derek,

I don't agree that this scripture contradicts what I have said. Redemption from past sins is realized when faith placed in Christ brings forth new life in which those sins are no longer committed. If you think about it this way, the scripture affirms what I have said.

Todd

[karenstricycle]

A man has rebelled against his wealthy father and has commited a crime for which the penaly is 5 years imprisonment or a fine of $500,000. He has no money. He believes he has a chance in court of beating the charge. He knows in his estranged condition his father will not help him; he has been disinherited.

His father knows he is guilty but feels pity for his prodigal son. He sends for his son and informs him that if he will confess what he has done and plead guilty, he will pay the fine for him and help him reform his life.

What will the son do? Will he trust the father with whom he has had a broken relationship for many years? What if his father doesn't pay the fine after he confesses and pleads guilty? He can not pay the fine and would have thrown away any chance to "beat the rap."

The son ponders the offer. He knows his father has always been a kind and honest man. A man who consistently does right and expects others to do the same to the best of their ability. He places his faith in His father's offer.

In court the son pleads guilty. The father pays the fine. Justice is upheld and the son is reconciled to his father who gives every possible aid to the son in restoring his life.

There is a cost in forgiveness. Somebody pays.

[Guest]

Hello, Steve,

Quote: Beyond this - the tabernacle system was operative as part of a covenant with the community of Israel, but what of the Native Americans (for example)? If the tabernacle system were utterly necessary, should it not have been made accessible to all who had unclean hands and impure hearts?

Emmet, The way that God prescribes to come to him will be
available to everyone on an equal basis IMHO although not necessarily in this lifetime, but that's a different issue.

A convenient place, "not necessarily in this lifetime."

If it is not in this lifetime, how is it "available to everyone on an equal basis"?


Shlamaa,
Emmet

[Guest]

Hello, Homer,

A man has rebelled against his wealthy father and has commited a crime for which the penaly is 5 years imprisonment or a fine of $500,000. He has no money. He believes he has a chance in court of beating the charge. He knows in his estranged condition his father will not help him; he has been disinherited.

His father knows he is guilty but feels pity for his prodigal son. He sends for his son and informs him that if he will confess what he has done and plead guilty, he will pay the fine for him and help him reform his life.

What will the son do? Will he trust the father with whom he has had a broken relationship for many years? What if his father doesn't pay the fine after he confesses and pleads guilty? He can not pay the fine and would have thrown away any chance to "beat the rap."

The son ponders the offer. He knows his father has always been a kind and honest man. A man who consistently does right and expects others to do the same to the best of their ability. He places his faith in His father's offer.

In court the son pleads guilty. The father pays the fine. Justice is upheld and the son is reconciled to his father who gives every possible aid to the son in restoring his life.

There is a cost in forgiveness. Somebody pays.

If.

If there is a penalty that is absolutely imposed, without judicial discretion.

If the criminal survives to face trial.

But not if there is no absolute penalty.

Nor if the criminal has passed away.

I could draft parables to illustrate the latter contingencies, but that would hardly prove that my theology is sound - only that I have some ability when it comes to storytelling.


Shlamaa,
Emmet

[Guest]

The word "remission" is commonly used today to describe a cancer that was once active in someone's body that has now gone away. Usually it is because some doctor has prescribed a regimen of procedures such as chemical or radiation therapy that cures the cancer. The patient is healed; the cancer is gone.

This same word is used several times also in the KJV of the New Testament to describe sin which is also a cancer-like condition (metaphorically speaking) which invades our body and brings suffering and heartache both to ourselves and others. We need to be cured; we need a Physician.

Matt 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mark 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luke 1:77
To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

Luke 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Rom 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Heb 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Other translators of the New Testament may have clouded the true meaning of this word by translating it differently.

Our Physician also prescibes a regimen. In this case it has both procedures and medicine. The first procedure is to look upon Christ's death (the shedding of blood) which serves to strip away our insensitivity to sin. Other procedures are prayer and spending time in God's word. The medicine is the Holy Spirit which works internally to purge sin from our bodies.

The point here is that Christ, our Great Physician, came to bring remission of sins - to remove the cancer-like condition from our lives - so that we can be a blessing to others and enjoy God's spiritual blessings in our lives. To be "made whole" is to have a life where sin is in remission.

Todd

[karenstricycle]

If there is a penalty that is absolutely imposed, without judicial discretion.

There is. "The day you eat of the tree you will surely die." "For the wages of sin is death." This is an immutable law.

The first procedure is to look upon Christ's death (the shedding of blood) which serves to strip away our insensitivity to sin.

See scriptures above. One would think the universal condition of man would be adequate to illustrate the seriousness of sin.