Heb 8:7-13

[Guest]

Even though the duration is the same for everybody, the intensity is different for each person. I think this is a function of justice. Those with the greater crimes before God receive the greater intensity of punishment. It is clear that some experience more intense judgment than others. In Matthew 10:15, Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city." Matthew 11:22 says, "It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you." Jesus said to Pilate, "The one who has handed me over to you has the greater sin." There are going to be different degrees of judgment, which makes sense and seems to comport with the notion of justice.

According to Jesus not only is the intensity or degrees of punishment different but so is the length of time.
"And that servant which knew his Lord's will and prepared not himself neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes."
BUT HE THAT KNEW NOT ,and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes." Luke 12.48

So not only is the degree of punishment different but in both cases it ends at some point. These are Jesus words and the allusion is to hell and it is not eternal.

[Guest]

That was good Loaves; very interesting.

[Guest]

While I haven't been involved with this type of debate much (maybe because it's not of great importance to me at this time) I have to wonder about passages like this. (forgive me if these have been covered before)

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios).

From Strongs:
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

From Thayer:
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting


Compare how this word is used here:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal (aiōnios) life; and they shall never (ou mē) perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

ou mē
Thayer Definition:
1) never, certainly not, not at all, by no means

Strongs Definition:
ou mē
oo may
That is, G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise).

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting (aiōnios) life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not (ou) see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

ou
oo
Also οὐκ ouk ook used before a vowel and οὐχ ouch ookh before an aspirate.
A primary word; the absolutely negative (compare G3361) adverb; no or not: - + long, nay, neither, never, no


My point is this, eternal life is contrasted with eternal punishment. If the word eternal can mean something that ends, then so can punishment. But Jesus states: And I give unto them eternal (aiōnios) life; and they shall never (ou mē) perish,

I'm talking about the eternal state here, not if you can or cannot loose salvation. I'm speaking of the judgement. If aiōnios is not everlasting, then how can Jesus say of those He applies this word to that they will never perish.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish (apollumi), but have eternal (aiōnios) life.

apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

apollumi
Thayer Definition:
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose


If eternal life is not perishing, then how can one who perishes have eternal life (after being judged)?

[Guest]

If eternal life is not perishing, then how can one who perishes have eternal life (after being judged)?

Sean,

My thought is this. When a believer's body dies their soul continues to live in the presence of Jesus. If someone is not a believer their soul dies too, as in this verse...

Matt 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Life is not eternal for the unbeliever. It is interrupted when their body dies - there is no continuity of life. But we do know that all are resurrected - both the just and the unjust.

Acts 24:15
...that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

So even though they have perished they will live again.

Now, if the wages of sin is death, then have they already suffered God's wrath for their sinful life?....they perished, didn't they? So if they live again are they made alive in Christ since Christ has reconciled the world unto himself?

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

According to this verse, the same "all" that died in Adam (everyone), will be made alive in Christ.

Rom 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Think of Jesus. He took upon himself the sin of the whole world. What was the penalty for sin in his case? He died a painful death on the cross. Then he was raised from death. Is this our pattern?

1 Cor 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Todd

[Guest]

Continuing my thoughts from the previous post........

He who dies, who is not a believer, perishes. His life ends - his body has died and his soul is destroyed. This, I believe is what is talked about in Revelation Chapter 20. When someone dies (first death) he is brought before Christ's White Thone. If his name is written in the Lamb's book (believers) he is granted eternal life - his soul lives on in the presence of Jesus. Those whose names are not in the book are cast into the Lake of Fire - they perish - their soul dies and is destroyed (the second death). So, the death of the body is the first death, and the death of the soul is the second death.

Notice that four times in Rev 20 it says that the "dead" are the ones judged.

Rev 20:11-13
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

So, it seems that this judgment happens not when Christ returns but as people die.

Will all these, who wind up suffering the second death, stay in hell forever? No, I don't think so, as we all know there is a resurrection coming. What did the patriarch David say?.........

Acts 2:25-27
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

David knew that his soul would not be left in hell. There is a resurrection coming in which, as it is written, "all will be made alive in Christ."

Todd

[Guest]

Strongs defines "aion" in different ways.

Page 9 #165 age,course,eternal,ever,evermore,without end

Page 78 #5550 Chronos, a space of time (in general and thus properly distinguished from 2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion and from 165 (AION) which denotes a PARTICULAR PERIOD OR INTERVAL.

There it is "Aion" a particular period or interval thus "aion" is an AGE.

Here is how the scriptures use "aion"

There was time before the aions- 1 Cor 2.7

God made the aions- Heb 1.2

There were aions in the past - Col 1.26

This present age is called an aion- Gal 1.4

This present aion will come to an end- Matt 24.3

There is coming another aion aqfter this present aion - Luke 18.30

There are in fact coming multiples of aions - Eph 2.7

All aions will come to all their ends- 1 Cor 10.11


I'm not a universalist per se but it is God's will that no one should perish but everyone come to repentence. But will God's will be done or will man's will be done?
"ALL MY DESIRE WILL I DO" Isa 46.10-11

[Guest]

According to Jesus not only is the intensity or degrees of punishment different but so is the length of time.
"And that servant which knew his Lord's will and prepared not himself neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes."
BUT HE THAT KNEW NOT ,and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes." Luke 12.48

So not only is the degree of punishment different but in both cases it ends at some point. These are Jesus words and the allusion is to hell and it is not eternal.

Brother, how do you connect Luke 12:48 with an unbeliever? And how do you connect it with heaven/hell?

To me, Luke 12:48 may actually be referring to a Christian who has sinned in ignorance and will be disciplined later on in this life.

And on top of that, "stipes" may not even refer to punishment in hell. It could very well mean discipline in this life, not necessarily in the life hereafter.

I still can't get around statements by the New Testament such as 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9:

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power"

And Matthew 25:46:

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

"Everlasting" to me (without using a lexicon) means to go on and on. NOT Eternal. "Eternal" implies something infinite. Since punishment has a beginning point, it is therefore not eternal, but "everlasting", or "lasting" on and on.

While I haven't been involved with this type of debate much (maybe because it's not of great importance to me at this time)

I agree with Sean that there are really more important issues. However, this issue is worthy of some debate I think (considering the times in which we live).

I would also like to emphasize the fact that I wish no one to go to hell. I want everyone to partake of salvation. And yet, I am forced to deduce from what I've read that some will "depart" from Christ for eternity.

God bless.

[Guest]

And Matthew 25:46:

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

"Everlasting" to me (without using a lexicon) means to go on and on. NOT Eternal. "Eternal" implies something infinite. Since punishment has a beginning point, it is therefore not eternal, but "everlasting", or "lasting" on and on.

Thr greek translated as "everlasting destruction" (NOT IN ALL BIBLES BTW) in the KJV is "kolasin aionion". Kolasin can mean punishment or chastening or correction or cutting off as in pruning.
Aionion is the adjective form of aion and can mean ages upon ages or age abiding or indeterminate period of time.

The bible speaks of at least 5 "aions" for example "this present wicked aion" and the "consummation of the "aions."
Therefore it can't mean eternal and in fact the more recent non doctrine driven bibles do translate it correctly. These bibles are Rotherham's, Concordent Literal Translation and Young's Literal Translation and others.


BTW regarding what Judgement Day is like is described in Isaiah 26.8-9
"When thy judgements are in the earth the INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD will learn righteousness."

[Guest]

Strongs defines "aion" in different ways.

Page 9 #165 age,course,eternal,ever,evermore,without end

Page 78 #5550 Chronos, a space of time (in general and thus properly distinguished from 2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion and from 165 (AION) which denotes a PARTICULAR PERIOD OR INTERVAL.

There it is "Aion" a particular period or interval thus "aion" is an AGE.

Here is how the scriptures use "aion"

There was time before the aions- 1 Cor 2.7

God made the aions- Heb 1.2

There were aions in the past - Col 1.26

This present age is called an aion- Gal 1.4

This present aion will come to an end- Matt 24.3

There is coming another aion aqfter this present aion - Luke 18.30

There are in fact coming multiples of aions - Eph 2.7

All aions will come to all their ends- 1 Cor 10.11


I'm not a universalist per se but it is God's will that no one should perish but everyone come to repentence. But will God's will be done or will man's will be done?
"ALL MY DESIRE WILL I DO" Isa 46.10-11

I don't understand how this has anything to do with what I posted.

I showed examples were the word aiōnios
is used, but you gave examples of aion:

aiōn
Thayer Definition:
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

aiōnios
Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting


Not only that, Jesus says those who recieve aiōnios life will never perish. Are you saying that those who recieve aiōnios can come to an end/fall/perish etc? If not then how can someone who receives aiōnios punishment only get punished for "a time". It seems inconsistent. So are believers raised for an age, to temporary life?

[Guest]

Not only that, Jesus says those who recieve aiōnios life will never perish. Are you saying that those who recieve aiōnios can come to an end/fall/perish etc? If not then how can someone who receives aiōnios punishment only get punished for "a time". It seems inconsistent. So are believers raised for an age, to temporary life?

My judgement would be that "aion" is used in the bible as age and "aionios" which is the adjective form can mean indeterminent amount of time which can mean eternity depending on the context. So in the context of the saved it could mean eternal based on how Jesus uses the word. And in the context of how it applies to the unsaved IMHO it does'nt mean eternal but a period of time determined by God.