Did the torture of God's beloved Son satisfy Him?

[Guest]

The Law of redemption in the Word required
blood sacrifice; "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness".

Bob, show us that "The Law of redemption in the Word required
blood sacrifice". Your isolated quote does not prove it.

The writer to the Hebrews contrasts the system under the law of Moses with the new order in the Messiah:

Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the Holy Place yearly with blood not his own; for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hebrews 9:22-26

God's way of dealing with man and his sin under the law is quite different from his dealing with man under grace (God's enablement).

The Israelites had been offering appeasing sacrifices, like the nations aroud them. God had never desired sacrifices, but as a concession, He allowed them, as long as they were offered to HIM, rather than to some other god. When they were offered to him, He overlooked (forgave) their sin. Under that system, there was no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood.

Under the new order, there is also sacrifice concerning sins ---- a unique sacrifice ---- a different kind. It involves the death of a Man who gave his life in order that sin might be done away with ---- in order that man might die to sin and live to righeousness --- in order that man might no longer live for himself, but for Him. Here is a statement which describes the difference:

Acts 17:30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to people that everyone everywhere should repent.

I know the context of this statement involves Paul's word to the Greeks when he found an altar inscribed "To an unknown god". Yet, it seems that not only the gentiles lived in times of ignorance, but the Hebrews also, as they offered their appeasing sacrifices and received forgiveness. They had forgiveness but not deliverance. That latter was made available by the sacrifice of the Messiah who gave Himself to deliver all people from sin. All praise to His glorious Name!

[Guest]

Paidion-

i am a tad confused, which isn't a rare condition for me. HOW did the death of Jesus give us "deilverance?" I can understand the concept set forth by Bob- the traditional idea of atonement- but unclear how your concept "works." i agree with you that we are saved FROM our sins- but my understanding of how this works depends more on just the fact that Jesus died on the cross. it involves the indwelling of the HS, etc.

You are not saying that Jesus was just an example, are you? if so, wouldnt any old example have done (i.e. why did it have to be jesus?). Or are you rather stating that Jesus' death ACTUALLY does something REAL to us-- i.e that his death somehow changes our propensity to sin?

i likely am not being clear- hopefully you get my gist.


TK

[karenstricycle]

Paidion,

You wrote:

The Israelites had been offering appeasing sacrifices, like the nations aroud them. God had never desired sacrifices, but as a concession, He allowed them, as long as they were offered to HIM, rather than to some other god. When they were offered to him, He overlooked (forgave) their sin. Under that system, there was no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood.

You have repeatedly made this assertion. What scriptural proof do you have, particularly the boldface words.

And:

Under the new order, there is also sacrifice concerning sins ---- a unique sacrifice ---- a different kind. It involves the death of a Man who gave his life in order that sin might be done away with ---- in order that man might die to sin and live to righeousness --- in order that man might no longer live for himself, but for Him. Here is a statement which describes the difference:

Acts 17:30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to people that everyone everywhere should repent.

I know the context of this statement involves Paul's word to the Greeks when he found an altar inscribed "To an unknown god". Yet, it seems that not only the gentiles lived in times of ignorance, but the Hebrews also, as they offered their appeasing sacrifices and received forgiveness. They had forgiveness but not deliverance. That latter was made available by the sacrifice of the Messiah who gave Himself to deliver all people from sin. All praise to His glorious Name!

You certainly have an imaginative way of interpreting the scriptures. It would seem rather plain that in the context of Acts 17:22-34 that Paul is saying that He (God) demands repentance of the Gentiles. Otherwise Your interpretaion would seem to say the Jews had been ignorant of the need to repent. And how could they be ignorant of a deliverance that did not yet exist?

In another post you wrote:

The LAW of God was given for man's benefit, not for God's. Man's sin doesn't directly affect God, so why would he "demand payment" for it? This idea is not what the Bible teaches.

And:

Of course, God is grieved when we sin. But He is not grieved because "His holiness demands it". He is grieved because we are harming ourselves and others.

So why did God kill Uzzah for touching the Arc? Who was offended? And why did God become so upset with Saul, if not for disobeying positive commands that have nothing to do with moral law (that which involves our relations with our fellow man)?

Certainly God gave many Laws which are of great benefit to man, as Moses said in his preamble (1st Kings?) but many only relate only to Him.

[Guest]

Hello Paidion,

Quote: "God's way of dealing with man and his sin under the law is quite different from his dealing with man under grace (God's enablement)".


Gal. 4:4

But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, BORN UNDER LAW, TO REDEEM THOSE UNDER LAW that we might recieve the full rights of sons.

The redemption of Christ occured after the Law of God was satisfied.

Gal.3:13-14

Christ REDEEMED us from the CURSE OF THE LAW by BECOMING A CURSE for us; for it is written: Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree. He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus so that by faith we might recieve the promise of the Spirit.

Matt 5:17

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolsh them but to FULFILL THEM.

Deut. 27: 26

Cursed is the man who does not uphold the words of this Law by carrying them out".
Then the all the people shall say 'Amen"!

This shoud answer your point stated from Hebrews; "INDEED under the Law....

Jesus satisfied the just demands of the Law because he humbled himself in obedience to the conditions and requirements of the Law as one under Law . Are you saying God was any less gracious under the Law? You continue to use the word "enablement" as if this is the "catch all " answer to prove your point. Or that Jesus came "to do away" with sin... Of course he came "to do away" with sin and enables us, as sanctification is a process. But the Laws demand upon the sinner had to be dealt with under the Law. I am talking about Justification .

[Guest]

Greetings,

Sure, we're called to discipleship. However, like for the Rich Young Ruler; discipleship includes obeying every Law of God.

Then you replied:
1. If that is the case, Rick, have there ever been any disciples of Christ on earth?
2. Or do you mean "discipleship includes intention to obey every Law of God"?

1. a. I don't understand your question, really. But I'll give it a shot.
b. Just as the Rich Young Ruler was called to become a disciple, so were we; is what I meant by called to discipleship. (I could have worded it better, sorry). c. Jesus apparently intentionally "skipped over" a Commandment when he spoke with the man. His point in doing this (among whatever other things) was to emphasize that we can't "skip" any of the Commands of God.

2. No. I meant it includes not neglecting any Law of God. Had this young man not been dismissing 'YOU SHALL NOT COVET' Jesus may never have spoken to him. The man might have sold his things, gave them away, and followed Him voluntarily (?)....

Make sense yet?
Rick

[Guest]

Heb 9:14
how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

What insight can we draw from this passage? It seems that perhaps the writer is saying that Christ's death serves to clear our conscience "enabling" us to serve God with righteous living.

Heb 10:22
let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Todd

[Guest]

how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

What insight can we draw from this passage? It seems that perhaps the writer is saying that Christ's death serves to clear our


conscience "enabling" us to serve God with righteous living.
I think this verse supports imputed righteousness Todd. Sure we should serve the living God but prior to salvation were our works literally dead?
Were our works "evil"? Clearly our works were not literally dead nor entirely evil but they were'nt spotless therefore we do need to be "in Christ" to obtain his righteousness to be acceptable to God. And it's not to satisfy his wrath or anger but to be pure in heart because Jesus said "blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God."

[Guest]

Several people have asked me to give an exegesis of a passage in Romans. What I offer, will probably be regarded as a commentary rather than an exegesis. In any case, I hope this will provide and insight into the passage, and a better understanding of how I see salvation primarily as deliverance from sin rather than deliverance from hell.

I thought the verses prior to the requested text are important, being the context, and so I have included them as well.

This part of the book of Romans was written largely to Roman Jews to show that self-effort in keeping the law of Moses will not result in true righteousness. True righteousness has another source, and even Gentiles can attain to it.

Rom 3:19-4:8

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to the ones in the law, so that every mouth may be stopped up and the entire world may come under the judgment of God. Because of that, no flesh will be made righteous before Him out of legal works . For through law comes acknowledgement of sin.

Though the law was given to the Israelites, they cannot boast in it. If they do, their mouths will be stopped up so that the truth can come out. The truth is that the whole world will be judged on the same basis --- on the basis of works {Rom 2:6-11}. But the law was given in order that the Hebrews might acknowledge their sin.

But now without law, a righteousness of God has been manifested, being testified by the law and the prophets, but a righteousness of God through a faith in Jesus the Messiah, into all the believing ones.

We cannot become truly righteous through attempts to follow the Mosaic law. Now that the Messiah has come and died to deliver us from sin, we can have a righteousness of God, a real righteousness which has its origin in God, through trusting in Jesus to deliver us from sin, and to enable us to do God’s will. This all comes through faith ---- through expecting to be able to live righteously. But if we fail in any way, we can come to the throne of grace to receive mercy and help in a time of need. {Hebrews 4:16}.

Some imagine the righteousness of God to be “imputed” to us ---- not a real righteousness at all but a “cloak of righteousness” so that when God looks at us He will not see our sin but Christ’s righteousness. However, the “righteousness of God” which we can have is not a “positional” righteousness but an actual righteousness. It does not have its source in us, so that we may boast; it has its source in God. That is the reason it is called “the righteousness of God.” It is a righteousness which can be worked. But our sinful attitudes cannot work the righteousness of God. As James says:

{James 1:20} … the anger of man does not work the righteousness of God.

For there is no difference. For all sinned and are lacking the glory of God, being made righteous gratuitously in His [enabling] grace through the deliverance which is in the Messiah Jesus whom God set forth as a means of mercy through faith in his blood for the purpose of displaying his righteousness, because, in the forbearance of God, of overlooking of sins having previously occurred.
In the forbearance of God with the purpose of displaying of His righteousness in the present time, so that He might be righteous and make righteous the one who has faith in Jesus.

There is no difference between circumcised Jews who boast of having a relationship with God through the keeping of Mosaic law and godless Gentiles. For both groups have sinned and failed in attaining the glory of God. There is only one way to become consistently righteous, and that is through Jesus whom God has set forth as a means of mercy so that all may be enabled by His grace to overcome sin and to live righteously.

In former days, under Mosaic law, and as a concession to their system of sacrifices, God, because of His forbearance, overlooked sin. He did the same with the Heathen. Paul, in addressing the Athenians concerning their gods and religious practices, stated:

The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. {Acts 17:30}

He did the same with the times of ignorance in Mosaic times when people sought forgiveness from God with appeasing sacrifices. “Sacrifices and offerings you did not require, but you have given me an open ear [to hear your word and obey it]” and “To obey is better than to sacrifice”.
Yet the Hebrews chose sacrifice; it was the easier course. Yes, God allowed them to sacrifice ---- even told them how to do it, but it was not His requirement. He wanted obedience and righteousness. Yet, in those days He overlooked sin, anticipating the times of the Messiah, when complete allegiance to Him would result in real righteousness.

Where then the boasting? It is excluded. Through what law? Of works? Not! But through a law of faith. For we figure a person to be made righteous in faith apart from legal works.

How, then, can the Jews boast of their righteousness and superiority to the other nations because of their adherence to the Mosaic law? They can’t. Because they, like the Gentiles, are sinners too. However, there is a law by which all can become righteous. Not the law of self-effort to keep the Mosaic law, but the law of faith in Christ, so that He will enable us by His grace to overcome sin and live righteously.

Is He the God of Jews only and not of the Gentiles? Yes! Of the Gentiles, if, on the other hand, [there is] one God who will make righteous the circumcised out of faith and those who have the foreskin through faith.

It is not circumcision which makes a man acceptable to God, but righteousness. And this righteousness is available equally to both Jews and Gentiles --- through faith in Christ.

Therefore do we annul law through faith? May it not be! Rather we establish law.

The fact that we can become righteous through faith does not mean that we ignore the law of God and become antinomian. Rather we establish God’s law by really obeying it, as Christ taught us in Matthew 5, 6, and 7. We receive the power to obey it through faith in Christ. This enabling grace was made possible by Christ’s sacrifice of Himself.

What shall we declare Abraham, our biological forefather, to have discovered? For if Abraham was made righteous out of works, he has a boast ---- but not toward God. For what does the scripture say? Abraham trusted in God and it was counted to him toward [the goal of] righteousness.

Abraham did not discover that self-effort led to a righteous life style, but that it took faith in God to bring him to that place. When God saw that Abraham trusted Him, He regarded him as righteous right then, because God knew Abraham was on the road to righteousness. It’s like a father who says of his son, “Look at my little mathematician”. He knows his ten-year-old is not a mathematician yet, but he wants to be one. He loves mathematics and trusts his father to help him in math. So his father sees him as a mathematician already! So it is with God and Abraham. God saw the end of the process, and thus saw Abraham as righteous right then. (That is “justification”). God counted Abraham’s trust in him as the beginning of a process which would lead to righteousness.

That is how God regards us disciples. We are called “the righteous” in the Scriptures, and so we are, to a degree, but God is not finished with us yet. We are called “saints”. And we are said to be “saved” (from sin), even though we have not been completely delivered from sin yet.

Now to the worker, the wages is not counted as a favour, but as a debt. But to the one not working, but entrusting himself to the one who renders the impious man righteous, his faith is counted toward [the goal of] righteousness.

Paul repeats that one who tries to work righteousness on his own, if successful, would earn wages or rewards for it. But the person who entrusts himself to the Lord, and has faith in Him to lead him into righteousness, will be counted as righteous now, because of that faith --- for it leads to righteousness.

Even as also David says, “The blessedness of the man to whom God counts righteousness without works! Blessed are they of whom their lawlessnesses were forgiven, and of whom their sins were covered. Blessed is the man of whom the Lord, no way, counts [his] sin.

David says the same thing. How blessed is the man whom God counts as righteous even before he is actually righteous ---- the man who trusts in God to enable him. God knows such a man is on the path, and looking to Him for enablement. Therefore He is not going to hold his sin against him. God forgives him. He doesn’t count his sin against him. Such a man is blessed indeed!

[Guest]

Rick, somehow I missed this post and much of what followed it. I regret that I didn't reply sooner. Oh, well. As the old cliché goes --- "Better late than never".

1. It's not human sacrifice per se that I find repugnant. Indeed I admire people who give their lives to save the lives of others. And that is precisely what Jesus did.

1. A ritualistic human sacrifice is not the same thing as a person who "sacrifices their lives for others" (in war or for some other altruistic or noble cause). I agree Jesus can be said to have lived a "sacrificial lifestyle" to the point of death for us -- even as an example for us -- but this only a part of the complete theological picture.

I agree with your first sentence, but don't see the point --- unless you are suggesting that Christ's sacrifice was "a ritualistic human sacrifice". I certainly do not see His sacrifice either as ritualistic, or as a means to satisfy some theistically legal requirement for carrying out some legal form of "justice".

In human legal systems, (and that's all we have to go by with regard to our concept of legal justice), an innocent person cannot take the place of a guilty person so that the guilty one can be declared innocent and be set free. Indeed, if that were the case, it would be considered by virtually everyone to be a most unjust legal system).

2. What I find repugnant is the heathen human sacrifices which were offered to their gods to appease their wrath in order that those who offered them would not be harmed. Jesus sacrifice was not in any way of that order.

2. (Of course; human sacrifices are repugnant to us today). Deities have always required the appeasement of their wrath: it is how they are. But do you think the God of the Bible does not have this demanding quality and is unlike all other deities in this regard? (it sounds like you do).

I CERTAINLY DO! The gods of the nations are demons!!!

They sacrificed to demons which were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come in of late, whom your fathers had never dreaded. Deuteronomy 32:17

Appeasing sacrifices are the requirement of demons, not so that they will be loved, but so that they will be feared with a terrified, cringing type of fear. It is they that inspired autocratic kings who demanded of their subjects, "Give me what I want, or I will have you killed by means of a slow, agonizing death!" The Creator of the Universe is as far removed from the demons and their ways as the east is from the west. He is holy (set apart from all else).

Rather than having a "demanding quality" the Mighty Creator is in need of nothing. All things which He asked or requested of His people were for their benefit not His!

The following passage in Jeremiah 7:22,23 shows that God didn't require burnt offerings and sacrifices, but required obedience. Appeasing sacrifices were condoned as a concession (the Hebrews constantly wanted to do and have what the other nations did and had), and so God even told them how to do it, and to avoid sacrificing to other gods. But He didn't really want their sacrifices. He wanted their obedience.

For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them, ‘Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people; and walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.’ Jeremiah 7:22,23

What does this verse mean? (since you say Jesus' death has nothing to do with appeasing God's wrath)? 1 Thess 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. It seems to me Jesus did more than just live an exemplary, sacrificial lifestyle; that his death also saves us from God's wrath: And I don't see how this verse could possibly mean anything else.

According to the Scripture, salvation is primarily deliverance from sin, not deliverance from wrath. However, if we are on the strait and narrow way, we will in fact be delivered from God's wrath. Out of His wrath comes His judgment on the wicked, that they might undergo a painful correction over many ages. So, if we repent now in this life, that future painful correction will be unnecessary, and so we will not be "appointed for wrath". Yes, I agree that Christ's disciples are "saved from God's wrath". That comes along with the package. But it is not the main ingredient in that package. Deliverance from wrongdoing is.

3. Christ's supreme sacrifice of Himself was not to appease the wrath of an angry God so that He wouldn't send us to hell (au contraire Jonathan Edwards).

3. ("Eternal punishment" vs. annihilationism is a side topic (Edwards or not). The second death won't be a happy thing for anyone who dies it, regardless of which view is true).

I don't know why you wrote this. I wasn't addressing "eternal punishment vs annihilationism"

Do you believe Jesus' death appeased the wrath of God?

No.

If not: What does this verse mean? Ro 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

"Having been justified by His blood" refers to the fact that God regards us as righteous now, because we have repented and submitted to Christ, and are on the road to conformity to the image of Christ. This salvation is a process which will be completed at the coming of Christ. "He who began a good work in your will bring it to completion in the day of Jesus Christ." But the completion must come, before we are ready to be with the Lord forever. Those who die before His coming, and have been on that road at the time of death, will have the finishing touches placed upon them at His coming.

As I explained in my response to #2, deliverance from the wrath of God (which results in painful remediation in Gehenna) is included in the package of salvation. The main ingedient is deliverance from sin. I don't see how you make the leap from being delivered from God's wrath to Jesus' death being for the purpose of appeasing His wrath, unless you think it is for past sins that we will be punished. It's not. It's from our present live sins that we are to be delivered by God's holy punishment.

George MacDonald words express my own view:

The wrong, the evil that is in a man; he must be set free from it. I do not mean set free from the sins he has done: that will follow; I mean the sins he is doing, or is capable of doing; the sins in his being which spoil his nature, the wrongness in him, the evil he consents to; the sin he is, which makes him do the sin he does.

He will want only to be rid of his suffering; but that he cannot have, unless he is delivered from its essential root, a thing infinitely worse than any suffering it can produce. If he will not have that deliverance, he must keep his suffering. Through chastisement he will take at last the only way that leads to liberty. There can be no deliverance but to come out of his evil dream into the glory of God.

The Lord never came to deliver men from the consequences of their sins while those sins remained. That would be to throw the medicine out the window while the man still lies sick! That would be to come directly against the very laws of existence! Yet men, loving their sins, and feeling nothing of their dread hatefulness, have (consistently with their low condition) constantly taken this word concerning the Lord to mean that he came to save them from the punishment of their sins. This idea (this miserable fancy rather) has terribly corrupted the preaching of the gospel. The message of the good news has not been truly delivered.

. He came to work along with out punishment. He came to side with it, and set us free from our sins. No man is safe from hell until he is free from his sins. A man to whom his sins are a burden, while he may indeed sometimes feel as if he were in hell, will soon have forgotten that he ever had any other hell to think about than that of his sinful condition. For to him, his sins are hell. He would be willing to go to the other hell to be free of them. If he were free of them, hell itself would be endurable to him. For hell is God's and not the devil's. Hell is on the side of God and man, to free the child of God from the corruption of death. Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell except by being saved from his sins, from the evil within him. If hell is necessary to save him, hell will blaze, and the worm will writhe and bite, until he takes refuge in the will of the Father. "Salvation from hell" is the concept of those for whom hell rather than evil, is the terror. But even if some poor soul seeks the Father because of dread of hell, he will be heard by the Father in his terror, and will be taught by Him to seek the greater gift --- freedom from his sins. In the greater gift, he will also receive the lesser --- escape from hell.

Not for any or all of his sins that are past shall a man be condemned; not for the worst of them does he need to fear remaining unforgiven. The sin in which he dwells, the sin of which he will not come out. That sin is the sole ruin of a man. His present live sins, those sins pervading his thoughts and ruling his conduct; the sins he keeps doing, and will not give up; the sins he is called to abandon, but to which he clings instead, the same sins which are the cause of his misery, though he may not know it --- these are the sins for which he is even now condemned.

It is the indwelling badness, ready to produce bad actions, from which we need to be delivered. If a man will not strive against this badness, he is left to commit evil and reap the consequences. To be saved from these consequences, would be no deliverance; it would be an immediate, ever deepening damnation. It is the evil in our being (no essential part of it, thank God!) from which He came to deliver us --- not the things we have done, but the possibility of doing such things anymore.
As this possibility departs, and we confess to those we have wronged, the power over us of our evil deeds will depart also, and so shall we be saved from them. The bad that lives in us, our evil judgments, our unjust desires, our hate and pride and envy and greed and self-satisfaction ---- these are the souls of our sins, our live sins, more terrible than the bodies of our sins, that is, the deeds we do, because they not only produce these loathsome characteristics, but they make us just as loathsome. Our wrong deeds are our dead works; our evil thoughts are our live sins. These sins, the essential opposites of faith and love, these sins that dwell in us and work in us, are the sins from which Jesus came to deliver us. When we turn against them and refuse to obey them, they rise in fierce insistence, but at the same time begin to die. We are then on the Lord's side, and He begins to deliver us from them.
-----excerpted from The Hope of the Gospel, Chapter One "Salvation from Sin."

4. Christ's sacrifice was the means of enabling us to overcome sin (as per many Scriptures).

4. Yes, but once again; this is not the complete picture. That is, if you are "limiting" the death of Jesus to ONLY "enable us to overcome sin" (become better or more holy people)? Btw, you're sounding more & more like Schleirermacher as we go along, Don (which isn't necessarily a bad thing altogether...I mean, I'm part "liberal" myself).....

I believe it is the complete picture. Only righteous people will "make it", not through self-effort, but through the enabling grace of God with our coöperation.

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people,
training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and pious lives in the present age, awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds. Titus 2:11-14