Resurrection and Judgment

[Guest]

As for varying degrees of punishment, I don't see why that couldn't fit into the conditionalist system. I agree that it argues strongly against eternal conscious punishment, but I am not arguing for that.



I think varying degrees of punishment does argue against annhilation because your point is that eternal destruction is what's meant by eternal punishment yet if some are first receiving "few lashes" and then others are receiving "many lashes" and then afterwards they are destroyed , the varying types of punishment sounds like a different description then just a flat "eternal destruction."
Like i said before it's not impossible but it's like trying to get Jackie Gleason into a Volkswagon.

[Guest]

Steve7150 wrote:

And I give them eternal (aionios) life, and they shall never perish;
If never perish doesn't mean eternal, then what does?

And that's the beauty of the word because in this context it does mean eternal by explaining itself as in "never perish."

Steve, the word Greek word "aiōnios" never means "eternal". This is not my opinion. This is a fact. It is a word that primarily means "going from age to age" but figuratively mean "permanent", and that which is permanent is not necessarily eternal. Consider your permanent driver's license. It is permanently yours, but you won't have it forever.

The words "they shall never perish" is an interpretive translation. The words are literally "They shall no way perish into the age." We know that Jesus' sheep have perished from Jesus' time to the present, and continue to perish. None of them are yet immortal. But this perishing shall not continue "into the age", that is, into the next age, the kingdom age.
For on the last day of this present age, Jesus shall return and raise each one of his sheep to life, and they shall enter the kingdom age immortal.
So they shall in no way perish into the next age. That is, they may perish now, but they won't stay dead. They will be raised to life!

Derek wrote:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Is this the same meaning of eternal life in this context (meaning unending)? If so, why do you interpret the punishment that is said to be aionios in this verse differently? If not, are you saying that eternal life only means eternal when accompanied by the phrase "never perish"?

I know you're not directing these questions to me, Derek, yet I wish to address them. Again, I affirm that "aiōnios" never means "eternal". Augustine (354-430) used the passage you quoted above with the same argument. Augustine was the first to bring the concept of eternal punishment to wide acceptance in the church. Prior to him, the concept was almost unknown.

You are right in suggesting by your questions that it is inconsistent to hold that "aiōnios" does not mean "eternal" in the first clause, but does mean "eternal" in the second. But the fact is, it does not mean "eternal" in either clause, but rather means "going from age to age" in both.
The goats will go into correction which goes from age to age. Yes, "kolasis" does mean "correction" and not "punishment". The word was originally used in connection with pruning plants. It would be impossible to administer "eternal correction" for if there was success with the correction at any point, it would not be eternal. So, for every individual who will be corrected in Gehenna, the correction, as well as the suffering involved, will come to an end.

In the case of the sheep going away into aeonian life (life which goes from age to age), there is no difference except that this life just continues from age to age without end. This fact does not imply that "aiōnios" sometimes means eternal. Rather, whether the ages continue for ever or come to an end is not inherent in the meaning of "aiōnios".

If I am not mistaken, most Universalists say that aionios is here speaking of quality, not duration, but if one interprets John 10:28 as unending life, then interprets the same word here to mean a certain quality of life, then it would seem to me that it is simply the mention of punishment, which cannot be unending in the Universalist system, that requires one to interpret that way. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

I have heard many claim that the word, when speaking of "aeonian life" refers to a certain quality of life. If that is the meaning, then "aeonian correction" must refer to a particular quality of correction. I am sure that quality would be horrible!

But I agree with you that it would not be fair play to say that "aiōnios" when coupled with "life" refers to a certain quality of life, whereas when coupled with "correction" refers to a duration of ages of ages.

As I've stated above, I believe the word "aiōnios" means "going from age to age" in both cases.

[Guest]

And I give them eternal (aionios) life, and they shall never perish;
If never perish doesn't mean eternal, then what does?

And that's the beauty of the word because in this context it does mean eternal by explaining itself as in "never perish."


Steve, the word Greek word "aiōnios" never means "eternal". This is not my opinion. This is a fact. It is a word that primarily means "going from age to a



Actually Paidion i agree with you and it occured to me that in this verse "And i give them "aionios" life AND they shall never perish.
John ADDED a modifier to "aionios" which is AND they will never perish. Unless he is being redundant he clarified what he meant by "aionios" because on it's own strength it does'nt mean eternal or never perish.

Plus the reason it can be used in Matt 25.46 is because the saved are ALREADY IMMORTAL , so "aionios" for the immortal by DEFAULT means eternal for those who already have immortality.

[mgarrett]

Plus the reason it can be used in Matt 25.46 is because the saved are ALREADY IMMORTAL , so "aionios" for the immortal by DEFAULT means eternal for those who already have immortality.

Steve,

I disagree that the saved are already immortal. The saved have eternal life but not immortality. There is a big difference between these two terms. Immortality refers to the redemption of the body - the resurrection from physical death; whereas, eternal life is something we have in this life which has to do with our spiritual self.

In my opinion, this is why there is so much confusion on these issues. There are two kinds of death - physical and spiritual. The bible does not tell you which one is the subject when death is mentioned (you have to figure it out). When one is resurrected from physical death he becomes immortal and lives forever. When one is [spiritually] resurrected from spiritual death he obtains eternal life. These terms should not be confused.

Todd

[_Derek]

I think varying degrees of punishment does argue against annhilation because your point is that eternal destruction is what's meant by eternal punishment yet if some are first receiving "few lashes" and then others are receiving "many lashes" and then afterwards they are destroyed , the varying types of punishment sounds like a different description then just a flat "eternal destruction."

Though they may all end up in the same state, this does not mean that the same punishment is exacted on them beforehand.

Concerning Eternal Punishment:

Edward Fudge in his paper The Final End of Wicked says:

"Of the 70 occurences of the adjective "eternal" six times the word is used with nouns signifying acts of processes rather than persons or things.

The six eternal acts or events are salvation (Heb. 5:9), judgment (6:2), redemption (9:12), sin (Mark 3:29), punishment (Matt. 25:46) and destruction (2 Thess. 1:9).

In four of the six, "eternal" refert to the results or outcome of the action and not the action itself. "Eternal judgment" does not mean that the judging will last forever, but that its outcome will. "Eternal redemption" does not mean that the process god on without end- for the redemptive work was done once and for all- but that its issue will have no end forever. "Eternal salvation" is the result; we do not look for an eternal act of "saving". And the "eternal" sin is called that because its guilt will never be forgiven, not because the sinning continues throughout eternity.

Given this regular usage of "eternal" to describe the results of an action or process, we suggest that it is perfectly proper to understand the two disputed usages in the same ordinary way." (refering to 2Thess. 1:9; and Matt. 25:46) i.e. that the "punishment" and "destruction" do not go on forever, as in punishing or destroying, but that the outcome does.

Like i said before it's not impossible but it's like trying to get Jackie Gleason into a Volkswagon.

.



Do you think that eternal punishment according to universalism fits Jackie into the VW better? I would like to hear how!

God bless,

[_Derek]

Paidion,

That is very interesting, especially the word "punishment" meaning correction. It does appear that that is the literal meaning of the word.

I am curious, how do you interpret "eternal destruction" in 2 Thes. 1:9? How is one "destroyed" for ages and ages without ever being...well...destroyed?

[Guest]

Paidion wrote:

Augustine was the first to bring the concept of eternal punishment to wide acceptance in the church. Prior to him, the concept was almost unknown.

Hmmm. How about these statements:

150 AD Second Clement "If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5).

150 AD Justin Martyr: "No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12).

150 AD Justin Martyr: "We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (First Apology, 21).

150 AD Justin Martyr: "[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (First Apology, 52).

150 AD Justin Martyr: and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; AND NOT ONLY, AS PLATO SAID, FOR A PERIOD OF A THOUSAND YEARS. And if any one say that this is incredible or impossible, this error of ours is one which concerns ourselves only, and no other person, so long as you cannot convict us of doing any harm. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. VIII)

150 AD Justin Martyr: For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, AND WOULD BE PUNISHED FOR AN ENDLESS DURATION, Christ foretold. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. XXVIII)

150 AD Justin Martyr: when some are sent TO BE PUNISHED UNCEASINGLY into judgment and condemnation of fire; but others shall exist in freedom from suffering, from corruption, and from grief, and in immortality." (Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr with Trypho, A Jew, Chap. XLV)

155 AD The Martyrdom of Polycarp "Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3).

160 AD Mathetes "When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, WHICH IS TEMPORAL; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be CONDEMNED TO THE EVERLASTING FIRE, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7).

181 AD Theophilus of Antioch "Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God.. [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things.. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14).

189 AD Irenaeus of Lyons "The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming ... t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, 'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,' they will be damned forever" (Against Heresies, 4:28:2).

197 AD Tertullian "After the present age is ended HE WILL JUDGE HIS WORSHIPERS FOR A REWARD OF ETERNAL LIFE AND THE GODLESS FOR A FIRE EQUALLY PERPETUAL AND UNENDING. (Apology 18:3).

197 AD Tertullian "Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out IN AN IMMEASURABLE AND UNENDING ETERNITY. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. THE WORSHIPPERS OF GOD SHALL ALWAYS BE WITH GOD, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and THOSE WHO HAVE NOT TURNED WHOLLY TO GOD WILL BE PUNISHED IN FIRE EQUALLY UNENDING, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (Apology , 44:12-13).

212 AD Hippolytus "Standing before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: 'Just if your judgment!' And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends.

Many more similar statements can be cited, but this ought to be enough.

It seems the advocates of universalism would do well to leave the early church fathers out of the discussion.

[Guest]

Hi Derek,

I read the article and found it compelling. However, I also found ironic that the author made some of the same type of traditionalist presumptions as the one he was refuting (eschatological nature of Isa. 66 for example).

To all,
I've read this topic with interest on occasion and it has me wondering whether or not there was some intentional ambiguity here on God's part. Like many other topics we discuss, it seems that God could have been clearer on this if He wanted to be. But perhaps He wants us to find the answers in Him rather than the mere sum total of the scriptures we can find on the subject. Maybe God wants us to know what He would do by His revealed character rather than simply the scriptures used to support this view or that. Jesus said to the religious types of His day:

John 5:39
39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
NKJV

You could come up to me and present an iron clad case that my wife has cheated on me with my next door neighbor. But I would know that it was false because I know her and I know her godly character. In my opinion, knowing God and His character ought to have considerable weight in discovering ambiguous truths not necessarily revealed clearly in scripture.

I have to admit that the traditional view of eternal torment of unbelievers does not seem to fit the character of God as I see Him revealed in the Bible. In fact, of the 3 views, it seems to fit Him the least in my judgment. Like Mike, I have struggled with the idea for years and I can't see what glory, pleasure, or satisfaction He would receive by pouring out His wrath on people forever and ever while simultaneously pouring out His love and blessings on those of us that do believe forever and ever. If we are "made in His image", I think it's both fair and reasonable to ask these kinds of questions.

On the other hand, I also have a hard time believing that He would violate someones' free will hatred of Him and force them to spend eternity with Him as their Lord against their will, even if it's through some sort of "krisis" they go through after death.

Presently, I'm very undecided on this but I have to say that the conditional view makes the most sense to me to date. However, I'm not yet convinced that death is the final cut off point for a persons' repentance and restoral to God. Perhaps the universalist view is partially correct in that there will be another chance to repent when God is seen more clearly and a more sober decision can be made. Maybe it's those that are just so bent on hating God and could not stand the idea of spending eternity with Him, that will be annihilated. We know that some people choose death over life when they commit suicide. Perhaps extinction sounds like a better option to some then spending eternity with God. I honestly can't relate to that kind of thinking, but I can't relate to suicide either so I have to yield to its plausibility.

But ultimately, I have to believe that whatever the truth is about the fate of the wicked, God and all of us who will be with Him will somehow have peace and satisfaction of the final results in the consummation of all things.

I just wanted to throw this out there simply to expand the discussion to possibly include some consideration of what God has revealed about Himself holistically and not necessarily just what is revealed on the topic of hell and judgment.

[_Derek]

I read the article and found it compelling. However, I also found ironic that the author made some of the same type of traditionalist presumptions as the one he was refuting (eschatological nature of Isa. 66 for example).

Yes, that is a point I would probably disagree with him on as well, though, I am not completely decided as to how I feel about the last several chapters of Isaiah.

Thanks for checking out the acticle!

God bless,

[Guest]

Steve,

I disagree that the saved are already immortal. The saved have eternal life but not immortality. There is a big difference between these two terms. Immortality refers to the redemption of the body - the resurrection from physical death; whereas, eternal life is something we have in this life which has to do with our spiritual self.



Todd, As i understand Matt 25.46 it's after the resurrection when the saved have glorified bodies and immortality.
And i think it supports what Paidion once said which is the possibly that the "sons of God" will be revealed and minister to the unsaved in the lake of fire in the ages to ages to come.