Hi Bob,
Thanks. No it's more than that. I'm just weary of the adversarial nature that these threads have so often taken on lately. I'd much rather engage in dialog and find common ground than win debates. I'm just not sure if it's the best use of my time anymore. One of my favorite mottos is "Unity without Uniformity". The only way that can happen is if people are willing to try to understand where each other is coming from. I'm as guilty as anyone of getting too strident, and I'm tired of it. It becomes counter-productive.
1 Timothy 4:10
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_Mort_Coyle
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_STEVE7150
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With regard to the 'wicked', no one has clearly demonstrated from the Word in my mind anyway the following;
1) that the sins of the wicked will be forgiven in the afterlife
2) that the wicked are able to repent in the afterlife
3) that the wicked will accept Jesus in the afterlife
4) that the wicked will try avoiding judgement
5) that the wicked will have sin 'conditioned' out of them in the LOF
6) that the wicked will even get out of the LOF
Bob, I've answered this several times and every time my response was ignored so to repeat.
We all agree or at least i think we do that everyone gets resurrected to judgment.
The greek word for judgment is "krisis" or "krinos" which both allow for punishment with reconciliation and neither word means "damnation" which was the KJV translation and was blatently inaccurate.
The english word "crisis" came from this greek word for judgment "krisis."
Sometimes a crisis can turn someone's life around.
And i've quoted several verses that i believe indicate a sinner can eventually leave the LOF including Rev 22.17 , again with no responses.
1) that the sins of the wicked will be forgiven in the afterlife
2) that the wicked are able to repent in the afterlife
3) that the wicked will accept Jesus in the afterlife
4) that the wicked will try avoiding judgement
5) that the wicked will have sin 'conditioned' out of them in the LOF
6) that the wicked will even get out of the LOF
Bob, I've answered this several times and every time my response was ignored so to repeat.
We all agree or at least i think we do that everyone gets resurrected to judgment.
The greek word for judgment is "krisis" or "krinos" which both allow for punishment with reconciliation and neither word means "damnation" which was the KJV translation and was blatently inaccurate.
The english word "crisis" came from this greek word for judgment "krisis."
Sometimes a crisis can turn someone's life around.
And i've quoted several verses that i believe indicate a sinner can eventually leave the LOF including Rev 22.17 , again with no responses.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Danny, (edited in after this initial post: if you are still around?)....
Let me see if I'm following your train of thought and correctly understand your arguments. Re: 1 Tim 4:10:
a. You agree that it speaks of a salvation that is current and has always in the present tense, applying to anyone who lives and believes [or who has lived and believed while living]. If you believe this, so do I.
b. You disagree with me that this is "all" [nothing more, nothing less] the verse says or teaches because,
c. It clearly states, in your opinion, "all will be saved."
1 Tim 4:10 doesn't state c. The verse is in the present tense. The words "will" and/or "will be" are in the future tense and do not appear in the verse to begin with. Since 1 Tim 4:10 does NOT say "...God, who will be the Savior of all", the verse can't be used to as a 'proof' that Paul taught universalism.
Earlier, I presented each clause of the verse, following Paul's thought-by-thought, further demonstrating universalism wasn't what he had in mind. In this debate I'm going to continue to do exegesis of the pertient texts; not simply 'verses in isolation' or phrases from within a verse. Till I get a reply that I'm in error, and on which specific point or points; I can only assume there isn't a rebuttal to offer. What other choice do I have in this matter?
Re: The stakes of this debate, win or lose....
These recent CU Debate threads have around 8,000 hits. The "stakes" are Life and Death, not only in this world but in the one to come.
Of the 8,000 hits these threads have had; I take it for granted that unbelievers have been reading. Of these unbelievers there may be some who are addicts, alcoholics, or who otherwise are facing the really bad effects of what the Bible calls "sin". "Sin" in the Bible means a wide-ranging amount of things. In a nutshell it's what we humans do wrong as well as the consequences of doing it. Sin affects not only the person who does them but everyone they come into contact with (the spouse of an addict, for example, has to deal with not only the addict, but their own attitude and responsibilities...and probably, resentments).
There are certainly other unbelieving people who have read this debate who may not have committed a really "bad" sin like becoming an addict, alcoholic, rapist, murderer or stuff like that. Maybe they have been sinned against---and have the sin of bitterness inside as a result. Jesus commanded that we believe in Himself and in His Father, God Almighty. I urge you to obey His command now [He can forgive any and every sin, help you overcome yours, and teach you how to cope with the sins of others. It's totally worth it]!
If one heroine addict---or a person who simply hasn't become a Christian---who has been reading our debate decides he or she wants to get clean and come to God through Jesus today, they are ready to take the steps that "holds promise [for them] for the present life, but also for the life that is to come" [1 Tim. 4:8].
If one crack addict has read this debate and has become convinced that 'God will save all later', including him-or-herself, decides to get another fix in the meantime---and overdoses and dies this evening----it will be too late.
Any one of us could die at any time....
It's not a matter of who wins a debate.
Peoples' lives and eternal destinies are at stake.
Rick
P.S. Danny,
Beyond what I posted above; I want to say that I'm going to continue to oppose universalist teaching when I encounter it. I say this on principle and as a matter of conscience. Also, this subject isn't the only one I'm interested in, though I've been really 'into it' lately. I didn't know till recently we believe so differently (I really didn't). I've learned immensely from 'digging in' and for that I thank you (all) <<< meant literally,
I'm praying for everyone who has read this or the other 'CU' threads and encourage everyone to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ today and forevermore (Rick out).
If I misunderstood and/or misrepresented your position, I apologize and will try to clarify things (in what follows below).To me, you wrote:You intentionally mis-stated my position so that you could claim a victory (aka a "straw man" tactic - which is about the lamest trick in the book). So I called you on it and, once again, stated my position in no uncertain terms, but you intentionally mis-stated it again!
First, I've consistently maintained that 1 Timothy 4:10 teaches salvation is obtained ONLY by living believers. That this is [literally] "all" the verse says or teaches. My position has been established and is easy to see.You know darn well Rick that from the beginning of this thread I have maintained that 1 Timothy 4:10 does support a Christian Universalist view. What you are alluding to is that I answered your question of whether 1 TImothy 4 specifically taught that God will save unbelievers after they die. I answered that it does not specifically state this or the opposite [that God will only save unbelievers before they die) but that it does clearly state that all will be saved. Why did you mis-state my answer?
Let me see if I'm following your train of thought and correctly understand your arguments. Re: 1 Tim 4:10:
a. You agree that it speaks of a salvation that is current and has always in the present tense, applying to anyone who lives and believes [or who has lived and believed while living]. If you believe this, so do I.
b. You disagree with me that this is "all" [nothing more, nothing less] the verse says or teaches because,
c. It clearly states, in your opinion, "all will be saved."
1 Tim 4:10 doesn't state c. The verse is in the present tense. The words "will" and/or "will be" are in the future tense and do not appear in the verse to begin with. Since 1 Tim 4:10 does NOT say "...God, who will be the Savior of all", the verse can't be used to as a 'proof' that Paul taught universalism.
Earlier, I presented each clause of the verse, following Paul's thought-by-thought, further demonstrating universalism wasn't what he had in mind. In this debate I'm going to continue to do exegesis of the pertient texts; not simply 'verses in isolation' or phrases from within a verse. Till I get a reply that I'm in error, and on which specific point or points; I can only assume there isn't a rebuttal to offer. What other choice do I have in this matter?
Re: The stakes of this debate, win or lose....
To which I now add:Earlier, I wrote:For readers of this thread:
If anyone who is "riding the fence" on CU (Christian Universalist beliefs) and realizes that the preaching Gospel ("proclaiming the Good News") about Jesus is the ONLY way people can learn about God and then and therefore, can come to believe; I'd be extremely satisfied (see Romans 10:8ff).
If any said unbelieving person comes to believe God is their Savior [through Jesus], bringing themselves under the Blessed Lordship of Christ as one of His Believing-People; not only myself and Bob & Homer will be elated---all of the angels of God will REJOICE over one sinner who repents!
These recent CU Debate threads have around 8,000 hits. The "stakes" are Life and Death, not only in this world but in the one to come.
Of the 8,000 hits these threads have had; I take it for granted that unbelievers have been reading. Of these unbelievers there may be some who are addicts, alcoholics, or who otherwise are facing the really bad effects of what the Bible calls "sin". "Sin" in the Bible means a wide-ranging amount of things. In a nutshell it's what we humans do wrong as well as the consequences of doing it. Sin affects not only the person who does them but everyone they come into contact with (the spouse of an addict, for example, has to deal with not only the addict, but their own attitude and responsibilities...and probably, resentments).
There are certainly other unbelieving people who have read this debate who may not have committed a really "bad" sin like becoming an addict, alcoholic, rapist, murderer or stuff like that. Maybe they have been sinned against---and have the sin of bitterness inside as a result. Jesus commanded that we believe in Himself and in His Father, God Almighty. I urge you to obey His command now [He can forgive any and every sin, help you overcome yours, and teach you how to cope with the sins of others. It's totally worth it]!
If one heroine addict---or a person who simply hasn't become a Christian---who has been reading our debate decides he or she wants to get clean and come to God through Jesus today, they are ready to take the steps that "holds promise [for them] for the present life, but also for the life that is to come" [1 Tim. 4:8].
If one crack addict has read this debate and has become convinced that 'God will save all later', including him-or-herself, decides to get another fix in the meantime---and overdoses and dies this evening----it will be too late.
Any one of us could die at any time....
It's not a matter of who wins a debate.
Peoples' lives and eternal destinies are at stake.
Rick
P.S. Danny,
Beyond what I posted above; I want to say that I'm going to continue to oppose universalist teaching when I encounter it. I say this on principle and as a matter of conscience. Also, this subject isn't the only one I'm interested in, though I've been really 'into it' lately. I didn't know till recently we believe so differently (I really didn't). I've learned immensely from 'digging in' and for that I thank you (all) <<< meant literally,
I'm praying for everyone who has read this or the other 'CU' threads and encourage everyone to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ today and forevermore (Rick out).
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth
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_STEVE7150
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I'm going to continue to oppose universalist teaching when I encounter it. I say this on principle
How about this Rick, instead of telling us what you will oppose in advance which sounds like you have a paradigm.
How about telling us you are making a committment to search for the truth wherever it leads.
How about this Rick, instead of telling us what you will oppose in advance which sounds like you have a paradigm.
How about telling us you are making a committment to search for the truth wherever it leads.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
If one crack addict has read this debate and has become convinced that "God will send him to eternal torment", he may absolutely reject such a "God" and decide to have nothing to do with Him. He may well believe his own standards of goodness and love to be far better than God's.Rick wrote:If one crack addict has read this debate and has become convinced that 'God will save all later', including him-or-herself, decides to get another fix in the meantime---and overdoses and dies this evening----it will be too late.
I have encounterered people who have taken just such a stance!
I have also encountered some of them, who have repented and turned their lives over to Christ, when they learned that God is not the wicked tyrant in whom they were taught to believe, who requires eternal torment to satisfy His sense of "justice", but that rather His Great Heart is filled with LOVE and determination to draw all to Himself, no matter how wicked.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
How many people do you know became Christians after hearing about Universalism? (the belief that the wicked will go to Hell for an indeterminate amount of time after they die...and eventually come out as Christians).I wrote:If one crack addict has read this debate and has become convinced that 'God will save all later', including him-or-herself, decides to get another fix in the meantime---and overdoses and dies this evening----it will be too late.
Paidion replied:
If one crack addict has read this debate and has become convinced that "God will send him to eternal torment", he may absolutely reject such a "God" and decide to have nothing to do with Him. He may well believe his own standards of goodness and love to be far better than God's.
I have encounterered people who have taken just such a stance!
I have also encountered some of them, who have repented and turned their lives over to Christ, when they learned that God is not the wicked tyrant in whom they were taught to believe, who requires eternal torment to satisfy His sense of "justice", but that rather His Great Heart is filled with LOVE and determination to draw all to Himself, no matter how wicked.
How many people do you think will become a Christian if they think they don't have to become one while they are still alive? (universalism teaches a person can become "saved" after they go to Hell for however long, a period of time that the Universalists don't say "how long").
How many less Jews would Hitler have killed if he knew he was going to go to Heaven 'eventually' no matter what he did?
God's love was totally shown when He sent His Son, Jesus, to die for the sins of everyone. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" (john 3:16, ESV). John didn't say "that whoever believes in him will not 'go to Hell for some indeterminate amount of time and eventually come out of Hell and, then, get eternal life". He said whoever believes in Him will not perish and will have everlasting life.
Whoever winds up in Hell won't have a second life or a second chance to get out, the Bible says.
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe (1 Tim 4:10, ESV)
Hope is something people can have while they're alive. Paul labored to proclaim "John 3:16" to those who didn't believe. That hope is my hope, a hope I would not have had I died without having God, who is the Savior of anyone who believes.
On the Day of Judgment there won't be any excuses. On that Day, If anyone were to say, "I thought you were cruel, God," would reveal that they didn't know Him and the love He demonstrated for them by sending His Son to die in their place. It would also show they're judging God. And making a false judgment at that.
I, personally, don't if know those who reject God will be in Hell forever. It speaks of a "second death" that might be total destruction forever. Either way, God Almighty won't be giving any of us a second life or second chance.
Paidion, if you want to keep teaching that people they can live in sin, that they can falsely accuse God by judging His character, that they can even hate Him, and still go to Heaven anyway, that's your biznis.
But my biznis is to tell people that God is no tyrant, that He is the Savior of all who believe in Him and His Son...and after they (we all) die, no one will have another life to live over again to change things.
I'll give an account to God and so will you, Paidion. As along as you keep teaching what you do, you can expect my opposition.
Believe in Jesus before you die, friends!
Rick
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth
Rick,
You became a Christian to avoid Hell?
I became a Christian because it became obvious to me that God's ways were better than mine. Had nothing to do with avoiding Hell.
Since that time I have come to know God as a loving Father. His love for me (and all His creation) does not end when we die.
He said unless a seed fell into the ground and died, it would not bear fruit.
Death is a requirement for new life.
There are many metaphors used to describe judgment. People have been trying to figure out for hundreds of years which ones pertain to final judgment, which ones refer to temporal judgment. You may have it figured out to your own satisfaction, but please allow the rest of us to seek truth for ourselves, OK?
Praise God that He is a just God, full of goodness and mercy.
Oppose away!
Blessings,
Mike
I can tell you that for most of my life I rejected God because of the teaching of Hell. Just could not believe such a God could exist.How many people do you know became Christians after hearing about Universalism? (the belief that the wicked will go to Hell for an indeterminate amount of time after they die...and eventually come out as Christians).
I take it that means you wouldn't have?How many people do you think will become a Christian if they think they don't have to become one while they are still alive? (universalism teaches a person can become "saved" after they go to Hell for however long, a period of time that the Universalists don't say "how long").
You became a Christian to avoid Hell?
I became a Christian because it became obvious to me that God's ways were better than mine. Had nothing to do with avoiding Hell.
Since that time I have come to know God as a loving Father. His love for me (and all His creation) does not end when we die.
I don't follow your thinking. Are you suggesting that Hitler was in any way inhibited by the prospect of judgment? That he would have killed more Jews if not for Hell?How many less Jews would Hitler have killed if he knew he was going to go to Heaven 'eventually' no matter what he did?
But Jesus also said that taking up our cross and following Him was a requirement to be His disciple. He also said that if we did not lose (apollumi) our life we would not find it. (same word as perish in your quotation) He said He came to seek and save the (perished, lost, apollumi).God's love was totally shown when He sent His Son, Jesus, to die for the sins of everyone. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" (john 3:16, ESV). John didn't say "that whoever believes in him will not 'go to Hell for some indeterminate amount of time and eventually come out of Hell and, then, get eternal life". He said whoever believes in Him will not perish and will have everlasting life.
He said unless a seed fell into the ground and died, it would not bear fruit.
Death is a requirement for new life.
Funny, my Bible doesn't say that. In fact, I haven't found the word Hell in it (correctly translated, that is).Whoever winds up in Hell won't have a second life or a second chance to get out, the Bible says.
There are many metaphors used to describe judgment. People have been trying to figure out for hundreds of years which ones pertain to final judgment, which ones refer to temporal judgment. You may have it figured out to your own satisfaction, but please allow the rest of us to seek truth for ourselves, OK?
Yes, we will all give an account to God. You have my agreement, there.I'll give an account to God and so will you, Paidion. As along as you keep teaching what you do, you can expect my opposition.
Praise God that He is a just God, full of goodness and mercy.
Oppose away!
Blessings,
Mike
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Mike,
This is the first time I've really replied to you in this ongoing debate. I'll try to be thorough....
1. Yes I did, among probably hundreds of other reasons.
2. I knew God's ways were better than mine also. (To illustrate just one: I've estimated that when I believed again, at least 2/3rds of my caloric intake had been from beer)....
Did you believe in universalism when you became a Christian? Or did you learn later [the universalist belief] that you wouldn't have to "go to Hell for some indefinite time" first before God would save you anyway---even if you hadn't become a Christian in your life?
3. I believe the Bible teaches Hell is the place I would have gone to if God didn't show His love to me in the Person of His Son, Jesus. At one time I hated God because I knew I was going to Hell and blamed Him for it! (as Paidion pointed out people do); what a lame excuse! (this isn't an excuse for anyone to begin with! but only shows how estranged they are from God). But when His "love broke through" (song by Phil Keaggy)...I realized I didn't have to be His enemy any more!
The Bible teaches all humans are born in the image of God. It also teaches all humans are "born in Adam" and have become marred by sin (but, yet, are guilty of only their own sins). People are capable of understanding God due His image being [still] inside us though it, and we, are tainted by sin. Hitler was no exception.
Through a process that only God knows and Hitler knew; Hitler became a reprobate and devil-possessed. If the 'universalist gospel' were to be true---that Hitler is going to be saved from damnation regardless of what he did---we have no way of knowing for sure if he would have been more or less evil.
Since universalism is permissive---that sin and evil-doing are allowed and don't really matter, that you will go to heaven regardless---we can only guess as to what Hitler or any one of us would do if we knew we could get away with it.
I submit: Universalism is merely a product of human imagination.
Evil is, of course, only a phenomena of this present life. And it is downplayed by universalists as having no eternal consequences...it's treated as if it isn't "really real". The worst penalty to be paid for it is 'spending an indeterminate time in Hell', according to universalist beliefs. This sounds like something out of a Robert Heinlein sci-fi novel. Imaginative, but not real.
Universalism teaches people will be saved while having---and actively living in---the 'sinful nature'. In Romans Paul clearly taught that "Those who are in the flesh (doing what the 'sinful nature' naturally does: sins) cannot please God" (Romans 8:8, ESV ). Paul knew nothing of "another salvation" in the afterlife. He didn't teach people can please God after they die; people do things when they're alive! Paul knew a LOT about why people have to stop sinning, believe in Christ and God, and please Him before they die. It's all he EVER spoke or wrote about!
I now submit universalism is weird.
On the one hand, people who become Christians before they die, have one set of rules to follow (the commands of God). On the other hand, there is another set of NO-RULES (No God's commands) that need NOT to be followed for those who don't become Christians before they die. Weird. Two sets of standards in two different worlds: this REAL ONE and a future imaginary one.
Present day reality is the standard for those who become Christians now; the only reality human beings KNOW! (Pinch your leg real hard for a reality check...it should hurt). In universalism, a future and separate reality [do I hear 'Carlos Casteneda'?] in the afterlife wherein God has different rules and standards, will supposedly then come into effect. One set of saved people will have lived their lives for God; the other set of saved people will have lived as ungodly, "excuse-making", God-hating, and Satan-possessed lives as their hearts so desired: ODD.
Universalism is so strange! In it I can 'become a Christian' by not being one! I don't even have to become one before I die! What a deal! Now I can go ahead and commit adultery with that lady at work who tempted me! or would this get me a few minutes in the fire? She's easy on the eyes...I think I'll pay the price! ....(um, no thanks, just kidding).
If I still went to bars...I wonder what the fellas on the barstools would have to say if they knew they could sin-away and still go to heaven. My guess is they'd really like the concept and order another round to celebrate! (and the idea of this makes me sick)!
Yes, people who have become Christians will not to see the life to come till after they die---or Jesus comes back first! Neither one isn't all that far away in time, not really....
The Bible doesn't teach reincarnation or some kind of "second incarnation" (that we get a second life or another chance). It doesn't teach like the universalist Origen, that our souls fell down from heaven and will "go back up" by going from one spiritual level to another.
You have my permission to find the truth for yourself, Mike. When have I ever denied that to you? Wow, do I have that kind of power? C'mon, of course not, Mike!
And, yes, the same God who has the power to send people to Hell is the same Lord who has mercy and power to save all who call on his name.
Saved!,
Rick
P.S. "God is dead" --- Neitschze
"Neitschze is dead" --- God
This is the first time I've really replied to you in this ongoing debate. I'll try to be thorough....
I tried to convince myself such a God didn't exist; even becoming an atheist for a short period of time. I hated Him for the fact that I was a sinner on my way to Hell (seeing "sin" as an evolutionary 'taboo' stemming from primitive superstitions). The more I pondered my future judgment the more I hated and blasphemed His Name, and tried to get away from Him, imagining He didn't really exist. I went so far as to blame Him that I hated Him! (and began to see how absurd this was!)...But I thank God He showed me He is there and He is real and true! That His Son died in my place to save me from my sins and Hell, giving me the eternal life that began that very day I believed!I wrote:How many people do you know became Christians after hearing about Universalism? (the belief that the wicked will go to Hell for an indeterminate amount of time after they die...and eventually come out as Christians)
.
You replied:
I can tell you that for most of my life I rejected God because of the teaching of Hell. Just could not believe such a God could exist.
First, I can't really say if I would have become a Christian if thought I didn't really need to and/or if I didn't come to believe the God of the Bible is true [see John 14:6]. I think I may have just continued as a "New Ager" and had Jesus and the Bible-God 'in the mix' somehow, which I was already doing before I eventually became an atheist. Actually, if I had first come to believe again that "spiritual stuff is real" I probably would have have picked it right back up as: A New Age Syncretist, taking in what I liked and omitting what I didn't like from any and all religions (as I wouldn't have had to obey the First Commandment: 'YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME'). But as things went, I did in fact come to believe "spiritual stuff is real" and went out and bought a Bible...and LOOK where it got me! HOWDY, EVERYBODY! 8)I wrote:How many people do you think will become a Christian if they think they don't have to become one while they are still alive? (universalism teaches a person can become "saved" after they go to Hell for however long, a period of time that the Universalists don't say "how long").
You replied:
I take it that means you wouldn't have?
1. You became a Christian to avoid Hell?
2. I became a Christian because it became obvious to me that God's ways were better than mine. Had nothing to do with avoiding Hell.
3. Since that time I have come to know God as a loving Father. His love for me (and all His creation) does not end when we die.
1. Yes I did, among probably hundreds of other reasons.
2. I knew God's ways were better than mine also. (To illustrate just one: I've estimated that when I believed again, at least 2/3rds of my caloric intake had been from beer)....
Did you believe in universalism when you became a Christian? Or did you learn later [the universalist belief] that you wouldn't have to "go to Hell for some indefinite time" first before God would save you anyway---even if you hadn't become a Christian in your life?
3. I believe the Bible teaches Hell is the place I would have gone to if God didn't show His love to me in the Person of His Son, Jesus. At one time I hated God because I knew I was going to Hell and blamed Him for it! (as Paidion pointed out people do); what a lame excuse! (this isn't an excuse for anyone to begin with! but only shows how estranged they are from God). But when His "love broke through" (song by Phil Keaggy)...I realized I didn't have to be His enemy any more!
Hitler was an occultist. His beliefs were a mixture of Old Norse beliefs (in the god Odin), certain teachings of the philosopher, Neitschze, ("God is dead" and that we can become Quasi-Divine 'Supermen' to replace Him), a doctrine of racial-superiority, with totally false and really weird ideas about Who Christ was.I wrote:How many less Jews would Hitler have killed if he knew he was going to go to Heaven 'eventually' no matter what he did?
You replied:
I don't follow your thinking. Are you suggesting that Hitler was in any way inhibited by the prospect of judgment? That he would have killed more Jews if not for Hell?
The Bible teaches all humans are born in the image of God. It also teaches all humans are "born in Adam" and have become marred by sin (but, yet, are guilty of only their own sins). People are capable of understanding God due His image being [still] inside us though it, and we, are tainted by sin. Hitler was no exception.
Through a process that only God knows and Hitler knew; Hitler became a reprobate and devil-possessed. If the 'universalist gospel' were to be true---that Hitler is going to be saved from damnation regardless of what he did---we have no way of knowing for sure if he would have been more or less evil.
Since universalism is permissive---that sin and evil-doing are allowed and don't really matter, that you will go to heaven regardless---we can only guess as to what Hitler or any one of us would do if we knew we could get away with it.
I submit: Universalism is merely a product of human imagination.
Evil is, of course, only a phenomena of this present life. And it is downplayed by universalists as having no eternal consequences...it's treated as if it isn't "really real". The worst penalty to be paid for it is 'spending an indeterminate time in Hell', according to universalist beliefs. This sounds like something out of a Robert Heinlein sci-fi novel. Imaginative, but not real.
Universalism teaches people will be saved while having---and actively living in---the 'sinful nature'. In Romans Paul clearly taught that "Those who are in the flesh (doing what the 'sinful nature' naturally does: sins) cannot please God" (Romans 8:8, ESV ). Paul knew nothing of "another salvation" in the afterlife. He didn't teach people can please God after they die; people do things when they're alive! Paul knew a LOT about why people have to stop sinning, believe in Christ and God, and please Him before they die. It's all he EVER spoke or wrote about!
I now submit universalism is weird.
On the one hand, people who become Christians before they die, have one set of rules to follow (the commands of God). On the other hand, there is another set of NO-RULES (No God's commands) that need NOT to be followed for those who don't become Christians before they die. Weird. Two sets of standards in two different worlds: this REAL ONE and a future imaginary one.
Present day reality is the standard for those who become Christians now; the only reality human beings KNOW! (Pinch your leg real hard for a reality check...it should hurt). In universalism, a future and separate reality [do I hear 'Carlos Casteneda'?] in the afterlife wherein God has different rules and standards, will supposedly then come into effect. One set of saved people will have lived their lives for God; the other set of saved people will have lived as ungodly, "excuse-making", God-hating, and Satan-possessed lives as their hearts so desired: ODD.
Universalism is so strange! In it I can 'become a Christian' by not being one! I don't even have to become one before I die! What a deal! Now I can go ahead and commit adultery with that lady at work who tempted me! or would this get me a few minutes in the fire? She's easy on the eyes...I think I'll pay the price! ....(um, no thanks, just kidding).
If I still went to bars...I wonder what the fellas on the barstools would have to say if they knew they could sin-away and still go to heaven. My guess is they'd really like the concept and order another round to celebrate! (and the idea of this makes me sick)!
The Bible doesn't actually say it that I know of, but in a certain way our old life has "perished" or been done away with. We are to "reckon yourselves as dead to sin but alive to God," wrote Paul.I wrote:God's love was totally shown when He sent His Son, Jesus, to die for the sins of everyone. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" (john 3:16, ESV). John didn't say "that whoever believes in him will not 'go to Hell for some indeterminate amount of time and eventually come out of Hell and, then, get eternal life". He said whoever believes in Him will not perish and will have everlasting life.
You replied:
But Jesus also said that taking up our cross and following Him was a requirement to be His disciple. He also said that if we did not lose (apollumi) our life we would not find it. (same word as perish in your quotation) He said He came to seek and save the (perished, lost, apollumi).
He said unless a seed fell into the ground and died, it would not bear fruit.
Death is a requirement for new life.
Yes, people who have become Christians will not to see the life to come till after they die---or Jesus comes back first! Neither one isn't all that far away in time, not really....
The Bible has two ages. This age and the one to come. In this age we can be convicted (see that we have been found guilty) and have the chance to believe in God and change. In the age to come it will be too late to change anything, "what's done is done".I wrote:Whoever winds up in Hell won't have a second life or a second chance to get out, the Bible says.
You replied:
Funny, my Bible doesn't say that. In fact, I haven't found the word Hell in it (correctly translated, that is).
There are many metaphors used to describe judgment. People have been trying to figure out for hundreds of years which ones pertain to final judgment, which ones refer to temporal judgment. You may have it figured out to your own satisfaction, but please allow the rest of us to seek truth for ourselves, OK?
The Bible doesn't teach reincarnation or some kind of "second incarnation" (that we get a second life or another chance). It doesn't teach like the universalist Origen, that our souls fell down from heaven and will "go back up" by going from one spiritual level to another.
You have my permission to find the truth for yourself, Mike. When have I ever denied that to you? Wow, do I have that kind of power? C'mon, of course not, Mike!
I have and will oppose universalism, though it's not the only doctrine I'm opposed to or interested in.To Paidion, I wrote:I'll give an account to God and so will you, Paidion. As along as you keep teaching what you do, you can expect my opposition.
You replied:
Yes, we will all give an account to God. You have my agreement, there.
Praise God that He is a just God, full of goodness and mercy.
Oppose away!
And, yes, the same God who has the power to send people to Hell is the same Lord who has mercy and power to save all who call on his name.
Saved!,
Rick
P.S. "God is dead" --- Neitschze
"Neitschze is dead" --- God
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth
Paidion,
Quote: " If one crack addict has read this debate and has become convinced that "God will send him to eternal torment", he may absolutely reject such a "God" and decide to have nothing to do with Him. He may well believe his own standards of goodness and love to be far better than God's."
I am sorry, but you really make no sense to me with this statement.
If a "crack addict" or any other kind of "sinner" rejects the Gospel on the basis of your view of eternal torment, how do you think God would be more "loving" if He sends such a "sinner" to the "purifying fires of Gehenna" to be "tortured into submission"? Would such a "sinner" find such a God as you believe in more attractive, loving and gracious?
Are you not yourself imposing upon God your own standards
of goodness and love?
Quote: " If one crack addict has read this debate and has become convinced that "God will send him to eternal torment", he may absolutely reject such a "God" and decide to have nothing to do with Him. He may well believe his own standards of goodness and love to be far better than God's."
I am sorry, but you really make no sense to me with this statement.
If a "crack addict" or any other kind of "sinner" rejects the Gospel on the basis of your view of eternal torment, how do you think God would be more "loving" if He sends such a "sinner" to the "purifying fires of Gehenna" to be "tortured into submission"? Would such a "sinner" find such a God as you believe in more attractive, loving and gracious?
Are you not yourself imposing upon God your own standards
of goodness and love?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Rick,
I put it to you that you either do not understand Christian Universalism or you purposely misrepresent it. I can see from your response that you have a lot of time on your hands. I will not be able to respond to each of your points. Wouldn't matter if I did, because you have not been listening to what has been said, or in listening, you didn't hear.
First of all, I do not claim that CU is definitely correct. I am honest enough with myself to know that what I believe may be wrong. I am fallible. What makes sense to me now may not be what makes sense to me in 10 years. My views are constantly being refined. I suspect one day (on That Great Day), much of what I believe to be true now will be found to need revision. I wish you were honest enough with yourself and with those others reading your views that you are potentially wrong as well.
One of the things I like so much about listening to Steve Gregg's teaching is that he (to the best of his ability) represents fairly the various views and then gives his own views. On the various positions on Hell he is honest enough to say that all 3 major views have some scriptural support and that he has found himself leaning in different directions at different times.
Christian Universalism does not give anyone a free pass to sin. It does not offer a different way of salvation. Your saying that it does, does not make it so.
The Bible teaches that we reap what we sow. I believe that to be a spiritual law. There are times I wish it weren't so. But it is. It is true in this life, and it will be true in the life that is to come. No free passes. That is why it doesn't make sense for you to think that if you only have to spend 10,000 years in hell for getting drunk tonight, it might be worth it. That is why it doesn't make sense to think that sneaking a peak at that pretty lady might be worth it. Whether you like it or not, there are consequences for actions that you and I must pay for our poor choices. Christ came to free us from our sin. He came to show us that God is loving, and no matter what the adversary might say, we can trust Him!
I have so much I would love to say to you. I disagree with your thinking patterns on so many levels. But I have to admit, you may be right and I may be wrong. And I do not have the mental energy to engage you point by point.
I think that we both agree that Jesus is Lord, and that God is good!
Praise Him for that!
Blessings,
Mike
I put it to you that you either do not understand Christian Universalism or you purposely misrepresent it. I can see from your response that you have a lot of time on your hands. I will not be able to respond to each of your points. Wouldn't matter if I did, because you have not been listening to what has been said, or in listening, you didn't hear.
First of all, I do not claim that CU is definitely correct. I am honest enough with myself to know that what I believe may be wrong. I am fallible. What makes sense to me now may not be what makes sense to me in 10 years. My views are constantly being refined. I suspect one day (on That Great Day), much of what I believe to be true now will be found to need revision. I wish you were honest enough with yourself and with those others reading your views that you are potentially wrong as well.
One of the things I like so much about listening to Steve Gregg's teaching is that he (to the best of his ability) represents fairly the various views and then gives his own views. On the various positions on Hell he is honest enough to say that all 3 major views have some scriptural support and that he has found himself leaning in different directions at different times.
Christian Universalism does not give anyone a free pass to sin. It does not offer a different way of salvation. Your saying that it does, does not make it so.
The Bible teaches that we reap what we sow. I believe that to be a spiritual law. There are times I wish it weren't so. But it is. It is true in this life, and it will be true in the life that is to come. No free passes. That is why it doesn't make sense for you to think that if you only have to spend 10,000 years in hell for getting drunk tonight, it might be worth it. That is why it doesn't make sense to think that sneaking a peak at that pretty lady might be worth it. Whether you like it or not, there are consequences for actions that you and I must pay for our poor choices. Christ came to free us from our sin. He came to show us that God is loving, and no matter what the adversary might say, we can trust Him!
I have so much I would love to say to you. I disagree with your thinking patterns on so many levels. But I have to admit, you may be right and I may be wrong. And I do not have the mental energy to engage you point by point.
I think that we both agree that Jesus is Lord, and that God is good!
Praise Him for that!
Blessings,
Mike
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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