Heb 8:7-13

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:50 am

Actually, that's not calvinism. A calvinist would say it's not because God knew it would happen but because he determined it to happen.

I'm simply saying that since God knows everything, He knows who will receive the gospel.

Paul in Acts 17 says:

26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

That has to mean something. Not predetermining if we would believe, but that we, no matter were we live, can be drawn by God and we can draw near to God.

Re Calvanism it's a very minute difference in fact almost spilitting hairs saying God sends someone the gospel because He knows they will respond is in a sense electing them by ommiting this opportunity from others because God knows they won't respond. Then the effect is that these non responders don't really have freewill because God determined that they need not hear the gospel. That is pre-determination not freewill.

Re Acts 17 i think it's similar to Psalm 19 "The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament show his handiwork."
But how do believers in God take the great leap from believing in God to Making Christ the Lord of their life. They must hear the gospel on an equal playing field which rarely happens in this life. I'm sure we all agree just believing in God falls far short of salvation but the bible says "Christ will be testified to every man in due time."

Post by **_Sean** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:43 pm

Well, all I can say is the biblical models I find tell me that God is not going to miss anyone. Cornelius (a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God) managed to get this far, either by learning from the Jews are by responding to the light given through creation, however he did it, God got him the gospel. That's the best I can come up with without speculating as to what God might do.

I heard the gospel my whole childhood, but I didn't believe until as an adult I sat down and read the bible for myself. The conditions I was in just to open the bible and read it were against all odds, many unlikely events transpired to get me to the physical location were I read the bible. Then, once I believed I was removed from that circumstance. Or, to put it another way, God got me the gospel. God put me in the position, I had to physically pick up a bible and read it, there was no human being there telling me what to believe, I had to read it for myself. During that entire time I was seeking God for no known reason other than I had the desire. I was praying daily and I didn't know even at that time if there was a God to hear me. I didn't know if Judaism, Islam, Christianity, buddaism or whatever were true so I prayed God show me, to guide me, and that's what happened. Sorry about all the info, I'm just rambling. Anyway, I don't have a problem believing that God desires all men to be saved, and is able to reach all people if He so desires, even if it results in rejection.

How do you think the people were saved in the OT? They didn't have the name of Jesus Christ to call on.

Mal 3:16 Then those who feared the LORD spoke with one another. The LORD paid attention and heard them, and a book of remembrance was written before him of those who feared the LORD and esteemed his name.
Mal 3:17 "They shall be mine, says the LORD of hosts, in the day when I make up my treasured possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his son who serves him.
Mal 3:18 Then once more you shall see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve him.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:32 am

Well, all I can say is the biblical models I find tell me that God is not going to miss anyone. Cornelius (a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God) managed to get this far, either by learning from the Jews are by responding to the light given through creation, however he did it, God got him the gospel. That's the best I can come up with without speculating as to what God might do.

I think Cornelius is a good example of supporting what you are saying but this one instance IMHO is not enough to build a doctrine on that God gets the gospel to anyone He knows will believe. Not that it can't or does'nt happen in fact i had been walking my dog at night and looking up to the heavens and asking God the reason we are all here for weeks. A few months later i met the first born again Christian to my knowledge that i've ever encountered and she preached the gospel. The thing that made the most sense to me was the existence of Satan because it seemed to me the level of evil that existed throughout history was beyond just human generated evil so the good and evil battle immediately reasonated with me.
Homer has kinda labeled Paiodion,Todd and myself as universalists but what i really believe is that everyone gets a fair opportunity to hear the gospel and repent which includes restitution , some method of paying for sin not for salvation but for justice and bowing the knee to Christ. If people don't want Christ at some point God destroys them in the LOF.

So people in the OT as well as others who never heard the true gospel get a fair opportunity at that point of resurrection IMO.
Isaiah 29.11 "The whole vision has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed which men deliver to one who is literate saying "Read this please."
29.18 "IN THAT DAY the deaf shall hear the words of the book and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness."
29.20 "The scornful one is consumed."
IMHO this is judgement day and the books that are opened are not books of works ,for God does'nt need books to know our works but rather the books opened are the gospels.

Post by **_loaves** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:58 am

STEVE7150 wrote:Homer has kinda labeled Paiodion,Todd and myself as universalists but what i really believe is that everyone gets a fair opportunity to hear the gospel and repent which includes restitution , some method of paying for sin not for salvation but for justice and bowing the knee to Christ. If people don't want Christ at some point God destroys them in the LOF.

STEVE7150: Could you extrapolate on what you mean by "bow the knee." The verses go like this:

"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord"

And so everyone will acknowledge that "Jesus Christ is Lord," but it then becomes a question if "Jesus Christ is your Lord." The verse doesn't say that Jesus is their Lord. It is only saying that everyone will ultimately know who's boss, whether they like it or not.

Same goes for "bowing the knee." "Bowing the knee" doesn't mean that everyone will be in submission to God. It only means that people will know who's boss; take it or leave it.

Think back to the OT when people came before the Kings of Judah. When a servant bowed before a king, it was out of acknowledgement of his authority, rather than 100% submission. In their heart they may have been in total rebellion! The bowing of the knee was because he recognized who was boss. Now, whether he was in 100% submission to that boss was another story.

Post by **_Paidion** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:40 am

Romans 14:11 for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God." RSV

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated as "give praise" from one lexicon is "acknowledge openly and joyfully".

Surely one cannot be forced to give praise to God, or to acknowledge Him openly and joyfully.

Which gives a king more glory? To force people to bow before him, or to win those people to himself, so that they will do it willingly and joyfully?

In his vision on Patmos, John saw every created thing giving praise to God. Such praise arises out of a willing and worshipful heart.

And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." Rev 5:13 RSV

Post by **_loaves** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:01 pm

Paidion wrote:Romans 14:11 for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God." RSV

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated as "give praise" from one lexicon is "acknowledge openly and joyfully".

Surely one cannot be forced to give praise to God, or to acknowledge Him openly and joyfully.

Well, one can give praise to God because he knows that He is king. Now, whether that same person is removed from hell because of it, is an entirely different story. My point was that it seems that "bowing the knee" is disconnected from your destiny of heaven/hell, etc.

You believe that after the Judgment, while people are being tortured in hell, the torture is a “corrective” torture and a “purifying” torture. Is that correct? Just clarifying ...

Throughout, the Book of Revelation, for example we see passages such as “the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,” and various other passages like it. To me, that doesn’t sound like corrective fire. And it doesn’t sound like a consuming fire, either. IMHO, it is a torture that lasts for ever. People will be thrown into the lake of fire along with Satan. Those same attributes need to be applied to Satan, because Satan is in the same place. Can Satan escape, and pay for his sin?

In other words, I cannot find any basis to believe in “corrective” fire, or second chances. From the Book of Revelation, I find that however you exited the world (what state), God won't force you to turn from your sin.

Forgetting what “eternity” means for a moment, throughout the Bible, I also find Jesus and Paul saying repeatedly that some people “shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” If they cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven (New Jerusalem), what can they enter?

If people can pay off their sins while in corrective torment, then what was the purpose of Jesus? If people can do it on their own, Jesus is not de rigueur.

To me, corrective torment cheapens Jesus, the Gospel, and our personal need of repentance.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:07 pm

Throughout, the Book of Revelation, for example we see passages such as “the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,” and various other passages like it. To me, that doesn’t sound like corrective fire. And it doesn’t sound like a consuming fire, either. IMHO, it is a torture that lasts for ever. People will be thrown into the lake of fire along with Satan. Those same attributes need to be applied to Satan, because Satan is in the same place. Can Satan escape, and pay for his sin?

We don't see "the smoke of their torment" throughout Rev but only once in relation to Satan and his pals not to people. And Paul never mentioned hell or eternal torture ,which you would think he would have BTW.
As we've said countless times , you can't pay for your sins to earn salvation only as part of restitution and repentence. If you read Rev and follow what happens to people in the LOF nothing is said about them until New Jerusalem comes down where we read the gates are always open. In Rev 22.17 The Sprit and the bride invite whosoever to drink from the water of life. The "whosoever" that have not yet drank from the water of life must be unbelievers in the LOF who have repented,payed for their sins and made Christ their Lord.
However if you find this thought disturbing , take heart my friend because most of Christianity believes as you do that God eternally tortures people.

Post by **_loaves** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:19 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:We don't see "the smoke of their torment" throughout Rev but only once in relation to Satan and his pals not to people. And Paul never mentioned hell or eternal torture ,which you would think he would have BTW.

Yes, the phrase “smoke of their torment” only occurs once in Revelation. Let’s look at the verse:

“And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” – Rev. 14:11

I don’t think “whosover” is limited exclusively to Satan. Just like “whosoever” will partake of salvation is not limited to the “elect” which the Calvinists dreamed up. (I’m not equating you with the Calvinists).

The verse, I think, you are referring to is 20:10:

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever”

The devil and his minions precede (or is it “proceed”) the people:

“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire”

“Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.” – Exodus 32:33

And while Paul may not have used the phrase “hell” and “eternal” it is certainly implied in many places, I believe.

“To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil” – Romans 2.

STEVE7150 wrote:As we've said countless times , you can't pay for your sins to earn salvation only as part of restitution and repentence. If you read Rev and follow what happens to people in the LOF nothing is said about them until New Jerusalem comes down where we read the gates are always open. In Rev 22.17 The Sprit and the bride invite whosoever to drink from the water of life. The "whosoever" that have not yet drank from the water of life must be unbelievers in the LOF who have repented,payed for their sins and made Christ their Lord.

Well, I’ll say this: I’ll believe Universalism sooner than Calvinism. But I believe in neither.

“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” – Rev. 22:14

And so, on the outside are these sinners. “Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein” – Mark 10.

Obviously, those people cannot enter. But you are saying that they can make up for it later on. But what does Revelation say?

“He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.”

And so, this is my text that I deduced that you don’t get second chances. However you lived on this earth is how you will enter into eternity. Good or bad.

STEVE7150 wrote:However if you find this thought disturbing , take heart my friend because most of Christianity believes as you do that God eternally tortures people.

Well, I don’t find it that disturbing. I’ve heard of stranger teachings…

Most of Christianity believes as I do? Really??!! I’ve heard the exact opposite. I’ve heard that most “Christians” today don’t believe hell exists.

I hope I am not portraying myself as someone who is hell-crazed, and desires everyone to go to hell. That is not what I believe at all. I want all men to be saved. Yet, from my reading, not all people are.

I don’t see how sinners and their unrepentant lives glorify Jesus.

Amen?

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:03 pm

“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” – Rev. 22:14

Have you ever told a lie? Other translations say the timid or fearful are outside the gates. Have you ever been fearful? So clearly it means unrepentant liars and fearful and dogs and even murderers are outside the gates or everyone would be outside correct? But this verse is well after they have been in the LOF so if it refers to the unrepentent then there must on the flip side be repentent sinners who are the ones invited by the Spirit and the bride in 22.17 .
When you say second chance that would mean you've had a first chance correct? Let's say you're brought up muslim and taught that the NT is corrupted and only the Quran is to be trusted or your brought up Hindu or Buddaist or by angry atheists or in the middle ages when no one had bibles and only a CORRUPT Catholic church existed or you're brought up as an eskimo in northern Norway and if you are any of the above and you die never having heard the gospel , do you think God will eternally torture you in hell?
So to have a second chance means having a first chance which most people have never had because most people are'nt Christian. Are they all doomed to eternal torture in hell?

Post by **_loaves** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:20 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:Have you ever told a lie? Other translations say the timid or fearful are outside the gates. Have you ever been fearful? So clearly it means unrepentant liars and fearful and dogs and even murderers are outside the gates or everyone would be outside correct?

Yes, I have lied. But our God is a powerful God.

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” – 1 John 1:9

Did you get the condition? The condition is to confess our sins. After that, He cleanses us, forgives and forgets our sin.

But to those that refuse to repent and confess God remembers your sin and you will be excluded from the kingdom:

“For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities…she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her” – Revelation 18

STEVE7150 wrote:When you say second chance that would mean you've had a first chance correct? Let's say you're brought up muslim and taught that the NT is corrupted and only the Quran is to be trusted or your brought up Hindu or Buddaist or by angry atheists or in the middle ages when no one had bibles and only a CORRUPT Catholic church existed or you're brought up as an eskimo in northern Norway and if you are any of the above and you die never having heard the gospel , do you think God will eternally torture you in hell?

My belief is that all have heard the Gospel in one way or another. All men are given the choice to accept or reject. The Book of Romans tells us this.

“Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another” – Romans 2:15

Remember, the law is written on our hearts now. God doesn’t need us to propogate the Gospel , although he will most certainly use us. And because the law is written on the tablets of our heart, this law convicts all unbelievers of their sin and their need of repentance.

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God” – Romans 3:19

Yours in Christ,