Did the torture of God's beloved Son satisfy Him?

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_Thomas
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Post by _Thomas » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:44 am

Paidon:

A few clarifications on Luther:
A similar phenomenon occured in the 16th century, when a monk by the name of Martin Luther gained a new insight into salvation.
Not so new as Augustine's writings against the Pelagians points out that we are justified by the Grace of Christ , and not by imitating his good works.
He even added "alone" to his translation, and when questioned about it, verbally attacked the questioner, saying that this was what Paul meant, and so he had a perfect right to add it to his text.
Luther’s “An Open Letter on Translating”, dated 1530.
I know very well that in Romans 3 the word solum is not in the Greek or Latin text - the papists did not have to teach me that. It is fact that the letters s-o-l-a are not there. And these blockheads stare at them like cows at a new gate, while at the same time they do not recognize that it conveys the sense of the text - if the translation is to be clear and vigorous [klar und gewaltiglich], it belongs there.

· Romans 3:28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith (alone) apart from the deeds of the law."

Does it change the meaning or clarify it?
Luther understood the contradiction. He called the book of James "an epistle of straw" and placed it at the very end of his translation.
“In a word St. John’s Gospel and his first epistle, St. Paul’s epistles, especially Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians, and St. Peter’s first epistle are the books that show you Christ and teach you all that is necessary and salvatory for you to know, even if you were never to see or hear any other book or doctrine. Therefore St. James’ epistle is really an epistle of straw compared to these others, for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it. But more of this in the other prefaces.”

Luther wrote this statement in his original Preface To The New Testament in 1522: He subsequently reconsidered and dropped it in the newer editions.

And this is how he reconciled James and Paul:

“The question is asked, “How can justification take place without the works of the Law, and how by the works of the Law can there be no justification, since James 2:26 clearly states: ‘Faith apart from works is dead’ and ‘a man is justified by works,’ using the example of Abraham and Rahab (James 2:23-25)?” And Paul himself in Gal. 5:6 speaks of “faith working through love,” and above in chapter 2:13 he says that “the doers of the Law will be justified before God.” The answer to this question is that the apostle is distinguishing between the Law and faith, or between the letter and grace, and thus also between their respective works. The works of the Law are those, he says, which take place outside of faith and grace and are done at the urging of the Law, which either forces obedience through fear or allures us through the promise of temporal blessings. But the works of faith, he says, are those which are done out of the spirit of liberty and solely for the love of God. And the latter cannot be accomplished except by those who have been justified by faith, to which justification the works of the Law add nothing, indeed, they strongly hinder it, since they do not permit a man to see himself as unrighteous and in need of justification.”

Faith is a living, restless thing. It cannot be inoperative. We are not saved by works; but if there be no works, there must be something amiss with faith

He even advised one person to "sin a little bit to spite the devil".
I believe you are referring to his letter to Melancthon , who was a bit self righteous and thought he had nothing to repent of.

If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly, for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here [in this world] we have to sin. This life is not the dwelling place of righteousness, but, as Peter says, we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. It is enough that by the riches of God's glory we have come to know the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world. No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day. Do you think that the purchase price that was paid for the redemption of our sins by so great a Lamb is too small? Pray boldly--you too are a mighty sinner.

The view of substitutionary atonement often results in people believing that it is impossible to be righteous, impossible not to sin.
It is certainly possible to be righteous , through repentance , but possible not to sin? I've never met anyone who wasn't a sinner , although I've met some who thought they weren't. Absolute sanctification is not something attainable in this life.
First we are to strive for holiness. Make a genuine effort. Not that the effort alone will suffice. But we need to coöperate with the enabling grace of God. This is how we do so, by striving, and by coming to the throne of Grace to receive mercy and help in a time of need. But we must also trust that God will enable us. This is the faith through which we are being saved by the enabling grace of God. [Eph 2:8]. I know Paul says in Ephesians, "you have been saved". Since "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion in the day of Jesus Christ", we may as well say we "have been saved from sin" now! It's an integral part of faith to believe we shall continue on the road of salvation until that salvation is compete.
Yes exactly so , and we strive through repentence.

Thomas
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:11 am

Luther’s “An Open Letter on Translating”, dated 1530.
I know very well that in Romans 3 the word solum is not in the Greek or Latin text - the papists did not have to teach me that. It is fact that the letters s-o-l-a are not there. And these blockheads stare at them like cows at a new gate, while at the same time they do not recognize that it conveys the sense of the text - if the translation is to be clear and vigorous [klar und gewaltiglich], it belongs there.

· Romans 3:28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith (alone) apart from the deeds of the law."




I think that Luther may have misunderstood that James was not speaking of the law of Moses but the "law of liberty" or the "royal law" and the many allusions that James made to the sermon on the mount. Would Luther have rejected the sermon on the mount also?
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:13 am

Homer, thanks for the Hick's article on the atonement, really good.
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Post by _TK » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:31 am

homer wrote:
We are saved by faith - faith that works. Faith working through love.

or, as i heard in a sermon not long ago:

"we are saved by faith, not works. but we are not saved unless our faith works."

that formulation solves the conundrum for me.

TK
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"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)

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Post by _Father_of_five » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:39 am

This is a follow-up to my earlier question. Let me clarify.

According to substitutionary attonement doctrine, Christ suffered a horrible death (endured God's wrath) in our place, delivering us from God's punishment for our own sin if we live in faith. This seems to say that those who are "saved" will be ushered into heaven without any punishment, while those who are not saved will suffer immeasurably.

This aspect of the doctrine doesn't seem to conform to the following verses.

Col 3:25
But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

1 Pet 1:17
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Rom 2:5-11
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

These verses seem to indicate that the judgment will be based on what we have done, not what Christ has done. Hence, it is extremely important to be delivered from our sins (that we sin no more) in order to be saved from the resulting punishment.

Can anyone provide any clear passages which indicate (contrary to these verses) that anyone will not receive punishment for the bad things done while in the body?...or will not receive for the good things done while in the body. Where does it say that our judgment is based on what Christ has done?

Todd
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Post by __id_1679 » Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:49 am

Hi Homer,

I think the whole of Heb 10 is not about "going to church" or our weekly gatherings. In vs 26 "sinning willfullly", what do you suppose is going on?
I have read that some denominations use this as a blanket to cover all sin.
I do not think this is what is meant. Let me ask you, how many "sins" do you and I commit that are "willfull"sins? Personally, I can't think of any sin I've commited that wasn't "willfull". I know about sin commited in ingnorance. I just don't well--know it! So I don't believe the text is refering to all sin. Hebrews is about Jewish believers making the transition from the Law of Moses to the grace of Yeshua (Jesus) the Messiah. The Law required sacrifice. We know Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice and "canceled" or fulfilled the Law of Moses. Sacrifices were no longer central to a Jew in Christ. Jesus is central. The Law by Christ's Atonement was completed. To return to the LAW of Moses for Atonement implied Jesus sacrifice alone wasn't sufficient. This was the "willful sin". After coming to a knowlage of the Truth as it is in Christ, and returning to the Law, was tantamount to spurning the "blood of the Covenant" and trampleling underfoot" The Son of God etc....Pretty scary threat to a Jew.

In Him,
Bob
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Post by __id_1679 » Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:54 pm

Hi Todd,

Quote: "Where does it say that our judgment is based on what Christ has done?"

I Cor 3:11-15, Romans 3: 21-31, Romans 5:1-21, Romans 8:1-17

These would be "for starters". I think we as believers should distinguish between what is "punishment" as in eternally "paying" for our sins, or when we sin, being "disciplined" as children of our Father in heaven in love. I John 3:1-24, Heb 12:4-11.

In Jesus
Bob
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Post by _Father_of_five » Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:31 pm

Traveler wrote:I think we as believers should distinguish between what is "punishment" as in eternally "paying" for our sins, or when we sin, being "disciplined" as children of our Father in heaven in love. I John 3:1-24, Heb 12:4-11.
Bob,

If I understand you correctly, you believe that the verses I quoted refer only to the "disciplining" we receive as children of God and have nothing to do with "Judgement Day." Do I understand you correctly? If so, may I ask which scriptures refer to the final judgment and indicate that our judgment is based on what Christ has done? I don't think any of the verses you referred to in your post mention Judgment Day.

Todd
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Post by __id_1679 » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:30 pm

Hi Todd,

Let me try and answer your first question.

Quote:
2 Cor 5:10
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Are the "saved" exempt from receiving for the bad things done while in the body? Isn't that the logical conclusion of substitutionary attonement? This verse seems to indicate otherwise. Comments?"

It seems to me what is being discussed by Paul here is about a believers "works", not sins. His sins have been atoned for and are "remembered no more"-forever! (Heb.10:17) But every "work" must come under or into judgement, (Matt. 12:36, Rom 14:10; Gal 6:7: Eph.6:8; Col.3:24-25) The reult is 'reward or loss' of the reward, but not his salvation. (I Cor.3:11-15).

There is a contrasting difference between a judgement of works and a judgement of sin. IMO, we can make a point from which we may draw a precedent from. Paul in I Cor. 5, addresses a serious sin of a brother. He commands explusion from the community that he may be "handed over to Satan" that his sin nature be destroyed but spirit saved on the Day of the Lord.
So was this man held accountable for his sin? Yes. Paul commanded that the Church put out the immoral man. But for what purpose? To send him to Hell or bring him to repentance and be restored back to fellowship? In II Cor.2: 6-11, the man is restored to fellowship. He repented. Mercy triumphs over justice! (James 2:12-13) Such is the love, mercy and grace of God in Christ!!! Amen?

Does this help?

In Jesus,
Bob
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Post by _Father_of_five » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:16 pm

Traveler wrote:It seems to me what is being discussed by Paul here is about a believers "works", not sins.
So, it is possible to have "bad" works that are not sin?

How would this concept fit with the sheep and the goats (Matt 25:31-46). Here we have all nations gathered before Christ for judgment. His judgment criteria seems to be about our works (not Christ's).

Traveler wrote:There is a contrasting difference between a judgement of works and a judgement of sin.
Are not sins unrighteous works? I don't really see a distinction between works of unrighteousness and sins.

Let's look closer at the verse from Romans 2

Rom 2:5-11
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

The part I particularly want to point out is bolded in verse 7. It states that eternal life is granted to those who are patiently continuing in good works. It does not say that eternal life is granted based on what Christ did. It goes on to say that those who obey unrighteousness receive God's wrath, but those who do what is good receive glory, honor and peace. Again, all based on what we do.

But let me say, that it is Christ who sent forth His Spirit which enables us to do what is good and shun that which is evil. Apart from Christ we are crippled.

Todd
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