The word [Jesus?] was God

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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Wed May 16, 2007 8:03 pm

To anyone:

I've seen how Derek and Ely, especially, are going into meanings of various words.

I'm posting this next link, not because I agree with (all of) the theology of its author; but because of the great depth of study in the Bible, the Early Church (Fathers) and other resources: Hebrew and Greek, Targums, etc. I've read and re-read these articles for a few years now:

Biblical Topics
by Bryan T. Huie


Huie is binitarian (I'm trinitarian) and doesn't believe in the "person" of the Holy Spirit, (I do). He is also premillennialist (I'm amill). Though I don't share his exact beliefs; Huie's site is one of the best resources I've found on the web (loaded with information)! See "The Godhead" and "The Spirit Realm" articles for things related to this thread.

In one article, Huie equates the NT word "theon" with the OT word "elohim" (see John 1:1,2). I've researched this but haven't been able to come up with proof, not really knowing the original languages. Btw, Huie answers emails. I may go ahead and email him about this.

Paidion (if yer out there):
I'm sure you would like these articles!

P.S.
I just emailed Bryan Huie and this is part of what I wrote:In one article you equated the NT word "theon" (e.g., John 1:1,2) with the OT word "elohim". I find this fascinating. Especially since the NT has less words for "God" than the OT. When John wrote John 1:1 could it be seen to read as (?):

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with The Gods (elohim: and is theon plural here?) and the Word was a/the God (theos)"

Put another way, could John have meant it like:
"The Word was with The Theon" (Theon = Elohim/The Divine Council?) and was, in fact, "the God of it" so to speak?
I need sleep, folks......ZZzzzzzzzz
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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Wed May 16, 2007 9:45 pm

I would be interested to know if all of the nouns and pronouns were genitive!
It turns out they were genitive. That's some pretty neat software you recommended brother. I highly recommend it to everyone here! Very cool.

As far as the word "en", it appears that they follow the "genitive rule" there as well. When a noun is dative, it's "in", when genitive, it's "by".

So Collosians 1:16 should be (if these rules are strictly followed):

Col 1:16 For in Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.

The NASB seems to follow the rule regarding "en" in Hebrews 1:1-2, but not in Col. 1:16 where they render "en" as "by" even though "Him" is in the dative case. I couldn't begin to say why. :oops:

God bless,
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Derek

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Wed May 16, 2007 9:51 pm

Am I boring you guys? Well, maybe Emmet or Paidion will chime-in (?) lol
Ok..........Zzzzzzzz
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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Wed May 16, 2007 10:05 pm

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with The Gods (elohim: and is theon plural here?) and the Word was a/the God (theos)"
Hey Rick,

I think that theon is singular there.

Regarding the "a" God thing. That has been dealt with quite a bit, due to the New World Translation's rendering of Jn. 1:1 to support JW Arianism.

They say that since there's no definite article there, then they can put "a" before God. However, there is aparently a greek grammer rule that makes the use of the definite article after "was" impossible.

Heres a an article by James White (who's a Greek scholar) on <b>John 1:1 </b>.

God bless bro,
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Derek

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Thu May 17, 2007 12:11 am

Derek,
You wrote:I think that theon is singular there.
I couldn't find Huie's reference and went by memory. It may be that Huie equates "theoi" with "elohim" (?)....I emailed him again & asked.
You also wrote:Regarding the "a" God thing. That has been dealt with quite a bit, due to the New World Translation's rendering of Jn. 1:1 to support JW Arianism.

They say that since there's no definite article there, then they can put "a" before God. However, there is aparently a greek grammer rule that makes the use of the definite article after "was" impossible.
I've heard this before but it seems to me that it's more a matter of translation preference to "fit" a theology. What White and many traditional apologists say about this "rule" sounds like an elongated argument (much like how Calvinists so often do) that has to go into so many details to make a dinky little point. The details seem to have to be added up to make the text "fit" the theology. Either way, whichever translation is right doesn't necessarily make anyone's theology correct...I could be wrong on this stuff though, as I'm no Greek expert.

I found something interesting on B-Greek. They said that John wasn't all that specific (as we would like him to be or think he is); that we look for more in John 1:1&2 that's actually there. They added that "the Word was with God" is eisegesis (saying it is literally "the word was with the god" and that capitalizing "Word" and "God" is, of course, more translators' preferences), lol

Also, using an example in Greek for "Caesar was king"; they said it could accurately be "Caesar was a king" and "the Word was a God".... Once again, it goes back to translators' preference. (On the link James White even admits to his preference for traditional monotheism (is anti-Arian -- and, for that matter -- anti-Hurtado/myself)! I always say it over & over: I'm more interested in the original meaning, than what later guys like Arius or Athanatius or Calvin and Arminius thought....

I have to try to sleep...maybe Bryan Huie can help me/us out?
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_Ely
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Post by _Ely » Thu May 17, 2007 3:23 am

Derek wrote:The NASB seems to follow the rule regarding "en" in Hebrews 1:1-2, but not in Col. 1:16 where they render "en" as "by" even though "Him" is in the dative case. I couldn't begin to say why. :oops:

I don't know if this is a rule for en. I'll let you know when my book arrives, which will be soon, hopefully !
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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Thu May 17, 2007 7:28 am

I found something interesting on B-Greek. They said that John wasn't all that specific (as we would like him to be or think he is); that we look for more in John 1:1&2 that's actually there. They added that "the Word was with God" is eisegesis (saying it is literally "the word was with the god" and that capitalizing "Word" and "God" is, of course, more translators' preferences), lol
The "the" before God, is the definite article. That's how we know it's talking about God.

They (the JW's) justify their translation (a god) by stating that the definite article is not there (the word was "a god"), thus it's not God. However, one only needs to try to be consistent with this rule, always rendering God without the article as "a god" to see how it doesn't work. (I'll give some references later).

You are right about the caps though. Not there in the Greek.


God bless,
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Derek

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

_kaufmannphillips
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response(s) to Derek & Ely & Rick_C

Post by _kaufmannphillips » Thu May 17, 2007 4:11 pm

Hello, Derek and Ely and Rick_C,

A few comments below...
Ely: Well, if you can recognise Greek letters and words, there is apparently some kind of stem or something which determines the case. Same with tenses. I've resolved to making an effort to get familiar with Greek. I've sent off for a Mounce's Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar to make a start on this.
Definitely worthwhile. The NT has enough delicate theological material in it to make the linguistic factor imperative. Mounce's grammar is a pretty fine piece of work. We use it in the Greek home study I teach.

Rick_C: In the late and early to mid second centuries the newly re-organized Judaism condemned heretics for believing in "two powers in heaven." Some scholars say that among these these heretics were, in fact, the very first Christians who held to these ancient Hebrew beliefs you are posting about, Emmet!
"Two powers" traditions seem potentially relevant to the study of the NT and the early church. I will assert, though, that they are not so relevant to understanding the meaning of Genesis 1. Genesis was not written for a first-/second-century audience, and sensitive interpretation of a document correlates to its intended audience.

I also hedge at lumping early Christians together with ancient Hebrew beliefs. Early Christianity developed out of late Second Temple Judaism, which is a different animal from both Israelite religion and the early Jewish religion of the post-exilic/pre-Hellenistic era.

So I would affirm the relevance of "two powers" traditions to exploring Christian origins, but I would distinguish them from ancient Hebrew beliefs (though they may be an outgrowth of earlier beliefs), and I would balk at interpreting Genesis through their lens.

Rick_C: The ancient Hebrews did see the angels as gods, "sons of God" and "the hosts of heaven". I believe this "old school" of Hebrew thought continued up to the first century -- with Jesus and the very first Christians --- and beyond. It wasn't until the Church became predominantly Gentile, and this didn't take very long, that these ancient Hebrew beliefs either dwindled away or were eventually completely stamped out.
I would take a more nuanced approach. Although I am not expert in this department, I would imagine the "old school" view to have attenuated some time before the first-century. During the prophetic era, a stronger monotheistic vector appears to have emerged, and the congregation of "gods" concept likely fell out of favor. In the Persian period, however, it seems that Zoroastrian influence may have encouraged the development of speculative angelology and theoretical constructs of multiple powers in heaven; furthermore, the latter may have interfaced with conceptualizations drawn from Hellenistic philosophy. So the post-exilic concepts of hosts or powers are somewhat removed from the ancient congregation of gods, due to the emergence of monotheistic emphasis, and the subsequent (or parallel, depending upon one's paradigm of dating) wash of Persian and Greek thought.

Derek: They say that since there's no definite article there, then they can put "a" before God. However, there is aparently a greek grammer rule that makes the use of the definite article after "was" impossible.

Heres a an article by James White (who's a Greek scholar) on John 1:1 .
White's article cites a grammatical principle that was formulated by Colwell in 1933; the article also mentions that the principle is not without exception.

Although I am far from an expert in Greek grammar, I am a bit skeptical toward "rules" that have only lately been proposed (cf. Granville Sharp's rule), and not by speakers native to the time or place of the documents in question.


Shlamaa,
Emmet
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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Thu May 17, 2007 6:26 pm

They (the JW's) justify their translation (a god) by stating that the definite article is not there (the word was "a god"), thus it's not God. However, one only needs to try to be consistent with this rule, always rendering God without the article as "a god" to see how it doesn't work. (I'll give some references later).
Hi Rick,

Some of those references are:

Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

There are dozens without the definite article. So try putting "a" in front of "God" in all of these. It turns into some strange stuff.

See also: Matt. 6:24; Luke 1:78: 2:40; Rom. 1:7, 17-18; Phillipians 2:11-13; Titus 1:1 and more.

God bless,
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Derek

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

_kaufmannphillips
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reply to Derek

Post by _kaufmannphillips » Fri May 18, 2007 9:56 am

Hi, Derek,
They (the JW's) justify their translation (a god) by stating that the definite article is not there (the word was "a god"), thus it's not God. However, one only needs to try to be consistent with this rule, always rendering God without the article as "a god" to see how it doesn't work. (I'll give some references later).

...

There are dozens without the definite article. So try putting "a" in front of "God" in all of these. It turns into some strange stuff.
A uniform rule does not apply here. In other circumstances, lack of the article in Greek is properly rendered in English with an indefinite article: e.g., Acts 12:22; 17:23; 28:6.

The issue in John 1:1 is not that an indefinite article is required for proper translation, but that it is a possible option.


Shlamaa,
Emmet
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