Resurrection and Judgment

[mgarrett]

For example in the parable of the wheat and tares the ungodly are first removed and then thrown into the furnace to be burned. This burning which hopefully means purification we know from other places happens over an "aionios" time frame which does'nt sound like a 24 hour day to me.

Steve,

As I see it, there are several possibilities here.

First, the burning described here may be speaking of the conviction of the Holy Spirit which happens during our lifetime. This is suggested by Paul in this verse...

Rom 12:20
Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."

Secondly, the "burning" could be referring to a certain kind of purification which is accomplished through physical death wherein the flesh is destroyed. Again, Paul tells us that he who is dead is freed from sin (Rom 6:7). This scenario would allow for the extended period of time you seem to think is implied. This may be what Paul was referring to in this verse...

1 Cor 5:5
deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

And finally, the "burning" could still be referring to "the last day" which does not necessarily have to be a 24 hour day, but may indeed be so - we cannot know for sure.

Todd

[Guest]

quote]Todd, I see judgement as last, not resurrection and in other places the time frame for it is described as "aionios" which is an undefined amount of time. However i think "aionios" although unspecific implies an extended amount of time.
[/quote]

"Aionios" in the literal sense is specific. It means "forever", time unending. Used figuratively, it is unspecific. If you think this is not so, that the literal meaning is unspecific, then please inform me what the meaning of "aionios" would be when used figuratively. Apart from the word having the literal meaning "forever", how you would know in any use of the word what might be meant?

Consider the English word "forever". It literally means limitless time, but also is used figuratively for a limited time, or even something habitual. We say "It takes forever for him to get anything done" or "she is forever gossiping". We recognize the obvious figurative use of the word, but this does not change the literal meaning.

In the KJV, "aionios" is translated "everlasting" some 23 times, and "eternal" some 40 times. There is nothing in the context that would support the conclusion that any of these translations are wrong or figurative; only predjudice.

Three times "aionios is used as an adjective for the noun "chronos" (time, long or short) to indicate a very long time:
Romans 16:25, "since the world began"
Tim. 1:9 and Titus 1:2, "before the world began.

Once "aionios" is used in an obvious figurative sense in Philemon 15, referring to Philemon receiving Onesimus back "forever", meaning no more than for the rest if Philemon's life. So if means an indefinate period of time, even a relatively few years, how can it be maintained that it might mean any particularly long time in hell for the lost? How would it "imply" any long time at all? To one in hell, if you believe it is a literal fire, a month would seem to be a very long time indeed.

[_mdh]

"Aionios" in the literal sense is specific. It means "forever", time unending. Used figuratively, it is unspecific. If you think this is not so, that the literal meaning is unspecific, then please inform me what the meaning of "aionios" would be when used figuratively. Apart from the word having the literal meaning "forever", how you would know in any use of the word what might be meant?

Homer,

This seems to be a subject which really upsets you. I don't know how many times (several at least) where I have read posts from you on this topic (the meaning of aionios). It appears to me that you really feel strongly about this. I want you to know every time you are ready to defend the subject of eternality of torment in hell it upsets me very much.

Why do you speak with such authority? Are you an expert in 1st century Greek? Are you so convinced of your knowlege in this area that you feel you need to correct others?

There does not seem to be a great deal of disagreement among scholars as to the meaning of the noun form of the word. It's primary meaning is an age (an unspecified period of time) from which we get the english word eon. It has even been used in the plural (cf. Eph. 2:7). It has sometimes been (mis?) translated forever, but that is not its primary meaning. Does the fact that its primary meaning is an unspecified period of time mean it cannot be used both literally and figuratively? I do not follow your argument. If the primary meaning of the noun form is an unspecified period of time, why does the (literal meaning of the) adjectival form have to be a specific period of time.

May I politely request that when you defend your view of the word aionios, you do it without asserting things which you are not the final authority on? Perhaps you could qualify your statements with something like "in my view", or "I believe".

After all, what you seem to be "defending" is the view that the unsaved will suffer for time without end. If this is not true, you may very well be attributing to God something which He might find very revolting (I know it is to me!).

For a lengthy treatment of this word: Aion


In His Love,
Mike

[Guest]

In the KJV, "aionios" is translated "everlasting" some 23 times, and "eternal" some 40 times. There is nothing in the context that would support the conclusion that any of these translations are wrong or figurative; only predjudice.


Homer, Are you a KJV only guy?

[Guest]

Homer wrote:

"Aionios" in the literal sense is specific. It means "forever", time unending. Used figuratively, it is unspecific. If you think this is not so, that the literal meaning is unspecific, then please inform me what the meaning of "aionios" would be when used figuratively. Apart from the word having the literal meaning "forever", how you would know in any use of the word what might be meant?

Consider the English word "forever". It literally means limitless time, but also is used figuratively for a limited time, or even something habitual. We say "It takes forever for him to get anything done"...

How about "It takes ages for him to get anything done"?

[Guest]

Hi Mike!

You said:

I want you to know every time you are ready to defend the subject of eternality of torment in hell it upsets me very much.

Just me or anybody? May be a moot point, though, as I seem to be rather alone representing what might be called the "traditional view".

Why do you speak with such authority?

Bad habit, easy to fall into after reading more than one bold statement from the other viewpoint.

Are you an expert in 1st century Greek? Are you so convinced of your knowlege in this area that you feel you need to correct others?

No and no.

May I politely request that when you defend your view of the word aionios, you do it without asserting things which you are not the final authority on? Perhaps you could qualify your statements with something like "in my view", or "I believe".

Are you requesting this of me alone, any who support the traditional view, or both sides? (Have you not noticed?)

After all, what you seem to be "defending" is the view that the unsaved will suffer for time without end. If this is not true, you may very well be attributing to God something which He might find very revolting (I know it is to me!).

If this is so, I am in company with most of Christianity. If it is true, would God be "revolting" to you? However it turns out, I am sure beyond doubt that God will do what is just.

For a lengthy treatment of this word: Aion

Interesting, but written from a universalist viewpoint.

There is a bigger issue involved in this matter, IMHO. Do you believe in the perspicuity of the New Testament? That, at least in its important teachings, ordinary people who diligently study can understand the message? After all, this matter is as basic as it gets, Hebrews 6:2. When it is insisted that the Greek word aionios never means eternal, and any ordinary student of the scriptures realizes it is the adjective used about nine times more often to describe the future state of the saved than it is to describe the state of the lost, any reasonable person ought to see the great damage that can be done to the hope of those who are trying to follow Jesus. A system is promoted where the lost are never permanently lost and the saved can have no certainty they are permanently saved.

I must add that my own view of hell is that the "fire" is a metaphor for something else (not a happy place), but that is another subject. And I will be perfectly happy if I am wrong about the permanent state of the lost. I do have the definate impression that the overriding reason the universalist position is advocated is a philosophical one. There is not one unambiguous statement in scripture in support of it.

Steve7150 wrote:

Homer, Are you a KJV only guy?

Not at all, but most of the concordances are keyed to it through Strong's.

Paidion wrote:

How about "It takes ages for him to get anything done"?

Good one there, Paidion!

May God bless you all! Have a wonderful Easter Sunday!

[Guest]

Well, I have taken time to consider "aionios" and still feel that in the case of the saved and the lost it means forever, or if you prefer age to age without end. Why? Because Jesus seems to be saying that is the meaning when the word is used here:

John 10:28
And I give them eternal (aionios) life, and they shall never perish;

If never perish doesn't mean eternal, then what does?

[Guest]

And I give them eternal (aionios) life, and they shall never perish;

If never perish doesn't mean eternal, then what does?


And that's the beauty of the word because in this context it does mean eternal by explaining itself as in "never perish."
But the way it's used in other contexts it does'nt have to mean eternal IMHO and not just because one is a universalist. I think by labeling any other definition of "aionios" other then "always eternal" as universalism , Homer you are trying to marginalize it.
For example if one believes in conditional immortality as Steve G seems to lean toward then "aionios" clearly does not mean eternal in the context of the lost yet he has no trouble applying "aionios" as eternal toward the saved.

[mgarrett]

Perhaps a key to understanding "eternal" as it is used with the word "life" is to first understand the word "life."

If someone asks you about your "life" he is interested in things like; what is your occupation, do you have a family, what are your interests, how do you spend your spare time, what are your joys and burdens. This is what life is. The word eternal when it is used with "eternal life" is an adjective, which is used to describe "what kind of" life rather than "length of" life. Using it as "length of" really does not make sense when you consider the word life as I have just described it.

"Eternal life" then is the kind of life we can enjoy from knowing God (John 17:3). This kind of life is an abundant life filled with spiritual blessings. Understanding it this way makes more sense to me.

Todd

[_mdh]

Well, I have taken time to consider "aionios" and still feel that in the case of the saved and the lost it means forever, or if you prefer age to age without end. Why? Because Jesus seems to be saying that is the meaning when the word is used here:

John 10:28
And I give them eternal (aionios) life, and they shall never perish;

If never perish doesn't mean eternal, then what does?

So if I said, "And I will teach you to know God, and you shall never perish", would that still make sense? In Jn. 17:3 Jesus defined "eternal" life a different way. In the verse you mentioned He could be speaking of 2 different aspects of the life which is to come, and it would still make sense, and they would both be true.