God's mercy and justice

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:41 pm

Christopher wrote:Hi Todd,

Although I can appreciate your sentiment and your reasoning, I don't think your view takes into account all the scriptural data. Jesus spoke of his suffering as a "must" (Mk 8:31, 9:12, Lk 9:22, 17:25) and rebuked Peter for opposing the plan (Mt 16:23).

Christopher,

Just because it was a "must" doesn't mean that Christ's death was the result of God's wrath. God had foreknowledge that man's sinfulness would ultimately lead to the death of His Son. In this case it was literally the sinfulness of mankind that hung Jesus on a tree.

Todd

Post by **_Christopher** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:01 pm

Hi Todd,

To be honest with you, I'm really not up for a lengthy debate on this issue so this will be my last post on this thread. I think the scriptures that have been offered so far by myself and others to refute the view you've expressed are sufficient to convince me that Christ's death was no tragic accident and that salvation has some sort of atonement characteristics to it. What those are exactly, I don't pretend to know. I only know what Jesus said about himself and what the apostles said about Him. That is, that He came for the very purpose of giving His life to reconcile people to God (Matt 20:28 ). That's really the only point I wanted to make on this topic.

I do appreciate that dialog though.

Lord bless.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:14 am

"Thus it is written , and thus it was NECESSARY for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day." Luke 24.46

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:04 am

Christopher,

I suppose that I haven't done a very good job of expressing my view. I never meant to imply that it wasn't necessary that Christ give his life. I agree that His death brings reconciliation and that this was His purpose from the beginning. I have tried to explain that this reconciliation takes place through the changed lives of those who follow Jesus in faith. It is the changed lives that appeases God, not the execution of an innocent man.

I have also said that it wasn't an act of God that killed Him.

John 13:2
The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus.

This scripture seems to indicate that it was the devil's plan to execute Jesus. What Satan meant for evil, God turned to good. It is just like Joseph who was cast into the pit by the evil act of his brothers, as it is written:

Gen 50:20
But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

So I don't think that my view is really that much different from any of you. I just believe that Christ's death was an act of evil that God turned to good - not a "righteous" act orchestrated by God.

Todd

Post by **_TK** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:30 pm

Todd wrote:

I just believe that Christ's death was an act of evil that God turned to good - not a "righteous" act orchestrated by God.

i know that you have stated that Christ's death was "necessary" and according to plan. however, when you say that his death was "an act of evil that God turned to good" it takes all the wind out of that sail. in other words, if it was planned that jesus would die, and that it was necessary, then God didnt "turn" anything-- to suggest that he "turned" an act of evil to good suggests that the death was not according to plan.

i might be splitting hairs here- i don't know.

TK

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:37 pm

TK wrote:Todd wrote:

I just believe that Christ's death was an act of evil that God turned to good - not a "righteous" act orchestrated by God.
i know that you have stated that Christ's death was "necessary" and according to plan. however, when you say that his death was "an act of evil that God turned to good" it takes all the wind out of that sail. in other words, if it was planned that jesus would die, and that it was necessary, then God didnt "turn" anything-- to suggest that he "turned" an act of evil to good suggests that the death was not according to plan.

i might be splitting hairs here- i don't know.

TK

TK,

What if I say that through God's foreknowledge He knew that this evil act would be committed, so He planned to turn it to good from the beginning. How's that? I just think the Joseph parallel is too obvious to ignor.

Todd

Post by **_PAULESPINO** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:55 pm

Hi Homer,

I believe that God's justice should not be contrasted with His mercy; rather, it should be contrasted with human injustice. Since the beginning of time the world has been filled with human injustice.

I believe the bible teaches that God is just and if we will not follow Him, He will become our adversary.

1Kings 11:14 " Then the LORD raised up against Solomon an adversary, Hadad the Edomite, from the royal line of Edom."

God raised an adversary against Solomon. Now God is raising an adversary against Solomon because He love Solomon, He wants to straighten his ways. We can also look at God's adversary as a form of Mercy because if God does not discipline Solomon then worst things can happen.
As a father I will do the same thing to my kids in order to correct their wrong ways.

Post by **_Derek** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:04 pm

I have also said that it wasn't an act of God that killed Him.

Hi Todd,

What is your interpretation of this passage?

Isa 53:4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him...

Who did the "piercing", "crushing", and "chastening" according to this passage?

...Isa 53:10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
Isa 53:11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors.

Who got crushed, pierced, chastened, offered, was in anguish, scourged? Christ.

Why? For our iniquities. For our transgressions. Because we've gone astray. Our guilt.

Who did it? The Lord.

Why? For our wellbeing, our guilt offering, to prolong our days, our justification, to satisfy God.

The only possible understanding of this passage (for a Christian) is that it is about Christ. So how does it square with your view?

God bless,

Post by **_PAULESPINO** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:11 pm

I'm sorry Homer I made a mistake I'm addressing my previous post to Father of Five.

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:00 am

Derek wrote:Who got crushed, pierced, chastened, offered, was in anguish, scourged? Christ.

Why? For our iniquities. For our transgressions. Because we've gone astray. Our guilt.

Who did it? The Lord.

Why? For our wellbeing, our guilt offering, to prolong our days, our justification, to satisfy God.

The only possible understanding of this passage (for a Christian) is that it is about Christ. So how does it square with your view?

God bless,

Hi Derek,

Great post! It certainly strengthens the majority view. If you take this passage literally as written then you are correct. I certainly understand why one could conclude that God was the one who arranged Christ's crucifixion. However, I think that it would be reasonable also to view it this way: That God through His foreknowledge knew that the sinfulness of mankind would lead to the crucifixion of His Son, but knowing that the only way to redeem mankind was to send Him to earth and allow Him to be killed, God chose to send Christ because of His love for the world.

Since God sent Him anyway, knowing that He would be killed (by an evil act perpetrated by Satan), this could explain the reason for the wording in Isaiah and by Paul. As I see it, God outsmarted Satan - what Satan intended for evil, God turned to good.

And I still believe that it is not the act of Christ's crucifixion that satisfies God, but the resulting reconciliation of the soul's that follow "The Way."

Todd