How Did Inspiration Work??

Post by **_TK** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:38 pm

I suspect JF is calling those of us who disagree with his theology as "you people"-- if so i am glad to call you all my "peeps."

why don't you join us, JF?

TK

Post by **_Jesusfollower** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:52 am

Although, you have through your posts indicated I am not one of you, I am a member of the Body Of Christ. I don't need to join anything. I am not an Israelite. Also I have not refused to answer anything at all tk, it is you who have continually closed your eyes to the true simplicity of scripture. You people refers to those of you who cling to the trinitarian doctrine and who think you are Israelites. The true greatness in what Jesus accomplished is in the written word for all to see. The word Church is also a bunch of people not a church building and not a religion such as Judaism.

Post by **_livingink** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:00 pm

In rereading Jesusfollower's 8/4 post, I find that I may have been mistaken. I believe he clearly says that Jesus was not the one true God. Since there is only one true God I assume he means that Jesus was not God at all. From his line of reasoning Jesus would not have emptied himself of deity since he never had it to start with.

In various posts in this thread, Jesusfollower has referred to Jesus as the rock, the cornerstone, the Lord and the author and finisher of our faith. Yet, he clearly says Jesus was not God.

Would you care to explain this further, Jesusfollower?

respectfully,

livingink

Post by **_Jim** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:25 am

JF,

Hate to tell you but read some of the first and second century writings and it is obvious the trinity was taught from the beginnin even though the word trinity wasn't first used until later. Also the RC didn't come up with the trinity.

50 AD The Huleatt Manuscript "She poured it [the perfume] over his [Jesus'] hair when he sat at the table. But, when the disciples saw it, they were indignant. . . . God, aware of this, said to them: 'Why do you trouble this woman? She has done [a beautiful thing for me.] . . . Then one of the Twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priest and said, 'What will you give me for my work?' [Matt. 26:7-15]" (Huleatt fragments 1-3).

74 AD The Letter of Barnabas "And further, my brethren, if the Lord [Jesus] endured to suffer for our soul, he being the Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, 'Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness,' understand how it was that he endured to suffer at the hand of men" (Letter of Barnabas 5).

150 AD Justin Martyr "The Father of the universe has a Son, who also being the first begotten Word of God,
is even God." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 63)

150 AD Polycarp of Smyrna "I praise you for all things, I bless you, I glorify you, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, with whom, to you and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 14).

170 AD Tatian the Syrian "We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man"

enjoy those samples.

Jim

Post by **_Derek** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:31 am

I might add Ignatius,

"...to the church at Ephesus in Asia, blessed with greatness through the fullness of
God the Father, predestined begore the ages for lasting and unchanging glory forever, united and elect through genuine suffering by the will of the
Father and of Jesus Christ our God..." -To the Ephisians 110-117AD

"...beloved and enlightend through the will of Him who willed all things that exist, in accordance with faith in and love for Jesus Christ our God...who have been filled with the grace of God without wavering and filtered clear of every alien color: heartiest greetings blamelessly in Jesus Christ our God. " -To the Romans 110-117AD or so

And Paul: "waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ", Titus 2:13

and Peter: "Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ" -2 Peter 1:1

Post by **_Paidion** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:19 am

150 AD Justin Martyr "The Father of the universe has a Son, who also being the first begotten Word of God, is even God." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 63)

If you read Justin, carefully, you will discover that he did not mean either that Jesus was the same Individual as the Father, nor did he mean that Jesus was a Person of the Trinity. Rather Justin meant that Jesus is Deity, even as the Father is Deity. This is precisely the same meaning that the apostle John held, when he stated "The Word was God (or Deity) in John 1:1. It is important to understand that the word "God" is used in the generic sense as well as in the individual sense. Both the Father and the Son are "God" in the generic sense because that is their order of being.
We are human. The Father and the Son are divine. We are man. They are God. We generate offspring and they are man. The Father generated a unique offspring before all ages, and He was God.

Justin explained it this way to Trypho and the group of Jews who accompanied him:

He was begotten [generated] of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves... and just as we see also happening the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled another, but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things... will bear evidence to me, when He speaks through Solomon the following..."

He then goes on to quote Proverbs 8, which begins this way in the RSV:

The LORD [Yahweh] created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. Proverbs 8:22,23

But He was not "created" in the sense that the heaven and earth were created in Gen 1:1. Indeed, a different Hebrew word is used, which means "acquired". Nevetheless, the Septuagint translated the word as "ktizo, the Greek word for "create, made, form". Justin and other early Christian writers understood this to refer to the begetting of the Son, the first of Yahweh's acts.

An artist may "create" a painting. The painting is quite different from the artist. But the artist "begets" children. His children are human like himself.
So it was with the Son of God. He was "begotten not created" as an early creed affirms. Yahweh first begat His Son, another exactly like Himself, who was also "God" or Deity. Then through His Son, He created the universe. Every created thing is quite different from Yahweh. But the Son which He begat, is Another who is "the exact expression of His essence." Hebrew 1:3. So the Son, along with the Father are both properly called "God" or "Deity". But when the Father alone is meant in the New Testament, the word "God" is prefixed with the definite article. So "the God" refers to the Father alone. Jesus Himself in His prayer referred to Him as "the only true God."

Doubtless the second century Christians whom Jim quoted, called Jesus "God" in the generic sense I have indicated above.

As for Ignatius, it is almost certain that the writings attributed to him which we possess today, are not the genuine writings of Ignatius, or if they are, they are heavily interpolated.

Post by **_Jesusfollower** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:01 pm

That s a bunch of incomprehensible nonsense. Pia, and also the others. They are all forgeries or Platonist religious bull. It does not override scripture and it is already listed Jesus has a God. Jesus is a man. He is still a man even in his exalted state as Lord.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Now do your calisthenics, to explain that away. I'm sure you will.

Post by **_Derek** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:41 pm

As for Ignatius, it is almost certain that the writings attributed to him which we possess today, are not the genuine writings of Ignatius, or if they are, they are heavily interpolated

Paidion,

Why is this almost certain? And which parts. The ones about Jesus being God?

Post by **_SoaringEagle** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:54 pm

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

This is a case where Jesus is exalted as a human, thus we have Paul focusing on Jesus' humanity where he is exalted as the Mediator. After Jesus' Resurrection, Jesus humanity was emphasized.

Post by **_livingink** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:11 pm

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Is this an example of "the fire"? Verses 31-39 show that the statement upset the Jews to the point that they wished to stone Jesus for claiming to be deity.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

In verse 6, is "the form of God" another reference to the analogy of fire?

thanks,

livingink