Heb 8:7-13

[Guest]

Todd,

I believe you missed the point of the parable. The king had already "atoned" for the debt in forgiving the debtor. He internalized the punishment, if you will; it cost him 10,000 talents. He then revoked the pardon (atonement) in the case of this man who would not forgive.

In the same way the sins we commit are atoned for: internalized by God.

I do not neeed to know the purpose of eternal punishment. That would be only speculation on my part and we already have a surfeit of that in regard to this subject and also the Trinity, I might add.

I know our Lord is merciful and just and have every confidence he will do what is right. He does not need to act in accord with my opinions.

To me, a much more vexing question is why good people suffer so terribly, which I have witnessed in people near and dear to me, while wicked people prosper. "We'll understand it all bye and bye".

"Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him."

[Guest]

I do not neeed to know the purpose of eternal punishment. That would be only speculation on my part and we already have a surfeit of that in regard to this subject and also the Trinity, I might add.


Call me crazy perhaps but i do need to know the purpose of eternal punishment because it contradicts everything God revealed about Himself in the entire bible. It contradicts His standards for justice in the OT , it contradicts the way He revealed Himself through his Son in the NT and it contradicts reason and God told us in Isaiah 1.18 "Come let us reason together."

[Guest]

Steve7150,

You said:

"Call me crazy perhaps but i do need to know the purpose of eternal punishment because it contradicts everything God revealed about Himself in the entire bible. It contradicts His standards for justice in the OT , it contradicts the way He revealed Himself through his Son in the NT..."

Does eternal punishment (or eternal separation from God, "outer darkness") seem any more unjust in your estimation than the cursing of the earth, with sickness, suffering, and death the lot of all sentient beings, solely because two people committed one sin each? Or do we have a grossly deficient view of the seriousness of sin?

Seems to me the passion and death of Messiah, God's beloved Son, reveals just how serious sin is. "Justice called and mercy answered."

[Guest]

Sean wrote:

Is this saying we can pay it off like Christ paid for sins, but it will just take time, or is it a way of saying that it's an impossible debt to pay off, so forgive others who have much less debt.

You can take it either way, but it is difficult to see us paying off our sin debt in this way.

I believe the point Jesus made is that there is no way no how the debt will ever be paid or the debtor will ever get out of prison. The sum Jesus pictured in the parable, 10,000 talents, was "a debt beyond conception.... 100 million dinars" (Joachim Jeremias, The Parables of Jesus). Thrown into prison, the only thing the debtor could do would be to sell his family into slavery. Slaves were valued at an average of 500 to 2000 dinars; the amount realized from their sale could bear no relation whatever to the monstrous debt. Jeremias states: "Hence the King's order in v.25 must be understood in the main as an expression of his wrath." Regarding the words in v.34 "until he should pay all that was due to him", Jeremias states "...in view of the magnitude of the debt, can only mean that the punishment would be endless.

The parable is an obvious warning about the last judgement and the permanence of the state of the condemned. Universalists, how do you explain the parable?

Homer,

The debt cannot be paid by the sinner - only through the atonement that comes through Christ's death.

Now, I ask you a question. What is the purpose of endless punishment?

Todd

I just wanted to say that I agree with Homer's point. He did a better job of making it then I did.

I just wanted to add that the parable seems to say we can have forgiveness and then have it forfeited. If we have it forfeited, the parable says we must pay the debt ourselves. Christ's atonement is not involved due to unforgiveness. It's like saying we can take the forgiveness of sins lightly and even abuse it, because in the end were all atoned for.

But the parable seems to say the forgiveness is revoked and now it's on you to pay it back. But if it's unpayable then how can it be paid back?

Perhaps God could again extend grace, but it doesn't say so. Rather, the outlook is rather sobering.

You asked: "What is the purpose of endless punishment?"

I know you didn't ask me this but I would restate what I said previously, that we have all the chances now to make that choice. If we don't make it now, in this life, I don't believe we ever would unless forced with no other option (torment or grace?). People know this now but take it lightly. While it's just my opinion, it seems like anyone who rejects God their entire life will never change their mind.

Besides, doesn't God know all things? Can't He see into the heart and tell if a person would, under any condition(s), repent? If so, God might put each person under that one specific condition that would cause them to repent, yet even so some still reject it.

I don't see it as God-vs-Satan. They aren't equal-but-opposites. God made the devil and can take him out if He wills it. It seems like God leaves the devil to test the faithfulness of those on the earth.

As far as people who don't hear the Gospel, I think it can get to them one way or another. Think about Cornelious, God got the Gospel to him.

[Guest]

As far as people who don't hear the Gospel, I think it can get to them one way or another. Think about Cornelious, God got the Gospel to him.

Really? I'm 53 and i first heard the gospel 5 years ago and i live in a western country with mass communications. And since we don't believe in predestination for individuals if i would have died in the plane crash i was in 15 years ago i would be eternally tormented in hell with no chance for repentence according to traditional beliefs.
It's a shame the Apostles never warned about eternal hell because being around Jesus more then anybody you would think they would have known and warned people but they never did.

[Guest]

Does eternal punishment (or eternal separation from God, "outer darkness") seem any more unjust in your estimation than the cursing of the earth, with sickness, suffering, and death the lot of all sentient beings, solely because two people committed one sin each? Or do we have a grossly deficient view of the seriousness of sin?


Just for the record i don't think the earth is cursed simply because two people happened to sin. Adam and Eve were innocent like babes and God allowed Satan the smartest creature in the universe to tempt Eve who had no experience with sin or evil to fend for herself against Satan. IMHO in this life we are going through tribulation not because of happenstance but for a greater good that we can't really understand at this juncture.

Yes eternal torment is millions of times worse then the temporal suffering we experience in this life. Of course sin is very serious but even with that David who repeatedly sinned was able to repeatedly repent and be forgiven.
If translating "aion" into eternal is correct then Satan may be the eternal god since he is the god of this "aion."

[Guest]

I'm 53 and i first heard the gospel 5 years ago and i live in a western country with mass communications. And since we don't believe in predestination ...

STEVE7150, I will start with this statement to you about predestination.

1 John 4:19, 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 3:5-7, Heb 9:15, 1 Peter 1:2, Ephesians 1:4-18, Romans 9:15.

Steve, there is much more to this than what I have here. Much more...

sinner.

[Guest]

I'm 53 and i first heard the gospel 5 years ago and i live in a western country with mass communications. And since we don't believe in predestination ...

STEVE7150, I will start with this statement to you about predestination.

1 John 4:19, 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 3:5-7, Heb 9:15, 1 Peter 1:2, Ephesians 1:4-18, Romans 9:15.

Steve, there is much more to this than what I have here. Much more...

sinner.

Welcome sinner,
Could you start a thread on this topic in the Calvinism/Arminianism area on the forum if you want to discuss this further? Most of the passages you quoted have been covered there. Personally I see predestined as being predestined according to God's foreknowledge.


As far as the Gospel not reaching someone until they are old, pointing to the fact that they could have died sooner than that and have been lost I would again point to Cornelious, who could have died too, but he didn't. God got hime the message before he died. God knows when you are going to die, and if you are 50 before you have a chance to hear the Gospel than that's when God wanted you to hear it, because He knew you weren't going to die before that time. It's certainly not like God is worried that He knows you would believe if He could only get the gospel to you before you die, but is somehow unable to get it to you. God got Cornelious the gospel even though Peter before that point didn't even intend on going to the Gentiles. God changed Peter's mind by giving him the vision and set up the events to make it so.

[Guest]

As far as the Gospel not reaching someone until they are old, pointing to the fact that they could have died sooner than that and have been lost I would again point to Cornelious, who could have died too, but he didn't. God got hime the message before he died. God knows when you are going to die, and if you are 50 before you have a chance to hear the Gospel than that's when God wanted you to hear it, because He knew you weren't going to die before that time. It's certainly not like God is worried that He knows you would believe if He could only get the gospel to you before you die, but is somehow unable to get it to you. God got Cornelious the gospel even though Peter before that point didn't even intend on going to the Gentiles. God changed Peter's mind by giving him the vision and set up the events to make it so.


Either we have freewill or we don't and the fact is billions of people have never heard the gospel in this life before they have died or they heard a corrupted version and i don't believe that the reason was that God knew they would'nt believe anymore then people who receive the honest gospel is because God knew they would believe. That's Calvinism or close to it. I believe the gospel of Christ will be testified to every man in due time even if it's in the lake of fire.
"the Man Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself a ransom for ALL to be testified IN DUE TIME." 1 Tim 2.6

[Guest]

Either we have freewill or we don't and the fact is billions of people have never heard the gospel in this life before they have died or they heard a corrupted version and i don't believe that the reason was that God knew they would'nt believe anymore then people who receive the honest gospel is because God knew they would believe. That's Calvinism or close to it. I believe the gospel of Christ will be testified to every man in due time even if it's in the lake of fire.
"the Man Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself a ransom for ALL to be testified IN DUE TIME." 1 Tim 2.6

Actually, that's not calvinism. A calvinist would say it's not because God knew it would happen but because he determined it to happen.

I'm simply saying that since God knows everything, He knows who will receive the gospel.

Paul in Acts 17 says:

26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

That has to mean something. Not predetermining if we would believe, but that we, no matter were we live, can be drawn by God and we can draw near to God.

There was a story that John MacArthur told once of a woman who could not see or speak or hear at all, someone worked with her until they finally developed a means of communication. One of the things communicated to her was the Gospel, about Jesus death and resurrection. This woman, who had no ability to communicate her entire life said that she already knew that, she just didn't know His name (Jesus). Pretty amazing.