The resurrection - 1 Cor 15

[Guest]

Steve7150,

I don't think that Rev Chapters 20-22 were necessarily written as a series of chronological events. For example, Rev 21:9-27, could easily be describing the heavenly Jerusalem as it is today which is also described in Heb 12:22-24.

And also, as another example, Rev 22:17 definitely applies today

I don't know maybe i'm missing something but those verses seem to occur after an event that has not happened yet. "Then i saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea." Rev 21.1

[Guest]

Steve7150,

I don't think that Rev Chapters 20-22 were necessarily written as a series of chronological events. For example, Rev 21:9-27, could easily be describing the heavenly Jerusalem as it is today which is also described in Heb 12:22-24.

And also, as another example, Rev 22:17 definitely applies today

I don't know maybe i'm missing something but those verses seem to occur after an event that has not happened yet. "Then i saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea." Rev 21.1

I also see those chapters as chronological, at the end of Rev 19, the Beast and false prophet were thrown in the lake of fire, then in Rev 20, the devil is bound for a 1,000 years, then he is released, then comes (his) judgement, then the devil is thown into the lake of fire were the beast and false prophet have already been thrown (rev 19) in the past (Rev 20:10). Then the new heavens and earth come, were there is no more death, because the last enemy to yet be defeated is death (1 Cor 15:25-26, 15:54) which happends at the resurrection of the dead and judgement (1 Cor 15:51-55, Rev 20:12, Matthew 25:46).

So the eternal state doesn't happen until the other events occur first.

I do agree that we can find similarities in Rev 21-22 present in our own time. So could Paul (even before Revelation was written):

2Co 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,
2Co 6:18 and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty."

and:

Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues;

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
Rev 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."

Yet we know Paul wasn't talking about the same thing as John in Revelation, so trying to put them in the same timeframe as we live today wouldn't seem to be correct. Otherwise, John's Revelation would have already been fulfilled before he wrote it, and would make no sense at all.

[Guest]

But it may be that God will have a mission for His resurrected saints, the manifest sons of God, the overcomers. They may be sent on missions to Gehenna to proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom! (Please indulge me in this bit of speculation).

Paidion, Re proclaiming the gospel in Gehenna , have you ever considered that the books that were opened were not of the works of unbelievers but the gospels? "And i saw the dead, small and great, standing before God and books were opened" Rev 20.12
"And the dead were judged according to their works ,by the things which were written in the books." 20.12
God does'nt need books of works to refer to so perhaps these books are the gospels.
Isaiah 29.11 "The whole vision has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed which men deliver to one who is literate saying, "Read this please." " And he says, I can not for it is sealed."
29.18 "In that day the deaf shall hear the WORKS of the book, And the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness."
In THAT DAY perhaps is judgement day.

[Guest]

I don't know maybe i'm missing something but those verses seem to occur after an event that has not happened yet. "Then i saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea." Rev 21.1

Steve7150 and Sean,

I certainly understand your logic about the last four chapters of Revelation. It is very possible that they are describing a series of chronological events. However, the possibility remains that they may not be chronological. Everytime John says, "And then I saw...," (which happens many times in those chapters) he could be talking about a completely different vision that may or may not follow chronologically with the one previous. If I am open minded, I can find a great similarity between Rev 21:1 (which you quoted) and the following one.

2 Cor 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Todd

[Guest]

Yet we know Paul wasn't talking about the same thing as John in Revelation, so trying to put them in the same timeframe as we live today wouldn't seem to be correct. Otherwise, John's Revelation would have already been fulfilled before he wrote it, and would make no sense at all.

Sean,

From reading your posts I am confident that you believe that Rev 12:5 is referring to the birth of Christ. Also, Rev 20:1-3, about the binding of Satan, was fulfilled through the death and resurrection of Christ. These events (and probably many others in Rev) were fulfilled prior to it's writing. I believe that much of Revelation is describing the Church and present day realities (written in apocalyptic language). There is some also that is future.

Todd

[Guest]

It is clear from the first verse of Revelation that the things described there are to take place after John wrote the book:


Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John... NASB

From Eusebius' church history, it can be determined that the book was written after AD 90, and most who have studied the matter are convinced that this is the case. If so, then none of what was revealed there took place in 70 AD or any other time before Revelation was written.

Many people do not seem to read this verse very carefully. I'm sure you have heard people interpret it to mean that the book "reveals Jesus Christ". That is not the case. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" refers to the Father revealing these things to Jesus, who in turn told them to His angel, who revealed them to John.

[Guest]

It is clear from the first verse of Revelation that the things described there are to take place after John wrote the book:


Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John... NASB

From Eusebius' church history, it can be determined that the book was written after AD 90, and most who have studied the matter are convinced that this is the case. If so, then none of what was revealed there took place in 70 AD or any other time before Revelation was written.

Many people do not seem to read this verse very carefully. I'm sure you have heard people interpret it to mean that the book "reveals Jesus Christ". That is not the case. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" refers to the Father revealing these things to Jesus, who in turn told them to His angel, who revealed them to John.

Paidion,

What is your understanding of the word "soon" in that verse?

Todd

[Guest]

I don't know maybe i'm missing something but those verses seem to occur after an event that has not happened yet. "Then i saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea." Rev 21.1

Steve7150 and Sean,

I certainly understand your logic about the last four chapters of Revelation. It is very possible that they are describing a series of chronological events. However, the possibility remains that they may not be chronological. Everytime John says, "And then I saw...," (which happens many times in those chapters) he could be talking about a completely different vision that may or may not follow chronologically with the one previous. If I am open minded, I can find a great similarity between Rev 21:1 (which you quoted) and the following one.

2 Cor 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Todd

Exactly my point. After reading 2 Cor 5:17 about Paul's time, read what Peter said while living in the same era:

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
2Pe 3:11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!
2Pe 3:13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
2Pe 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.

Peter saw this as still a future event. Why? Because the Holy Spirit is an earnest of what is to come. To be in Christ is to partake of Christ's death and resurrection. In one sense, we are tasting of the new heavens and earth now (being renewed internally by the Holy Spirit), but in another sense (external/physical), it's still future.

[Guest]

Yet we know Paul wasn't talking about the same thing as John in Revelation, so trying to put them in the same timeframe as we live today wouldn't seem to be correct. Otherwise, John's Revelation would have already been fulfilled before he wrote it, and would make no sense at all.

Sean,

From reading your posts I am confident that you believe that Rev 12:5 is referring to the birth of Christ. Also, Rev 20:1-3, about the binding of Satan, was fulfilled through the death and resurrection of Christ. These events (and probably many others in Rev) were fulfilled prior to it's writing. I believe that much of Revelation is describing the Church and present day realities (written in apocalyptic language). There is some also that is future.

Todd

My main point was about the climax chapters: 20, 21 & 22. If these were already done when John wrote this, then what's the point of explaining it? John makes it sound like it's something to look forward to. It's great encouragement to the martyrs.

[Guest]

It is clear from the first verse of Revelation that the things described there are to take place after John wrote the book:


Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John... NASB

From Eusebius' church history, it can be determined that the book was written after AD 90, and most who have studied the matter are convinced that this is the case. If so, then none of what was revealed there took place in 70 AD or any other time before Revelation was written.

Many people do not seem to read this verse very carefully. I'm sure you have heard people interpret it to mean that the book "reveals Jesus Christ". That is not the case. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" refers to the Father revealing these things to Jesus, who in turn told them to His angel, who revealed them to John.

Eusebius basically followed Irenaeus's statement which having read it myself agree it's too vauge to say it means: "John wrote revelation in Domitian's reign".

If you already believe that, it's easy to see it there. That's ceratinly what Eusebius believed. But I don't see it there. Irenaeus also stated Jesus lived to be about 50, and other early church father writings state that John died around the same time as James. Not all ECF writings are reliable. Clearly, to throw out the obvious time frame of Revealtion (the end of the old covenant, followed by the curses of Deut 28, etc.) and it's effects on Jerusalem and the entire Roman world is way too much for me to swallow. Especially when the events are "about to take place".