Should Christians go to war?

[Guest]

So let's take the neighbor analogy a little further (to the context of war). Let's say neighbor number 1 (the one with the gun pointed at them) is the Iraqi people, who were murdered and abused for decades under Sadaam Hussein. Then neighbor number 2 would be Sadaam and those supporting/doing the murdering.

Should we then as Christians do all that we can to stop neighbor number 2 from continuing to harm neighbor number 1? Would that be the loving thing to do?

Wouldn't joining the army or not resisting a draft in order to help neighbor number 1 be loving?

That is, if the wars were actually about helping people and not about political gain. Unfortunately we don't really get to choose.

It makes sense to me though how one could go to fight in a war and consider it one of the most loving things he could do.

[Guest]

I don't look at it as loving versus unloving. I look at it as obedience to those God has placed over you or disobedience. I have the freedom to protest my government's actions. I have the freedom change my government through my vote or donations. I can even leave and go elsewhere and renounce my citizenship if I wish. But if I choose to stay here under the authority of my government and then choose to disobey a call to arms if they make that call, then I am no different from an indentured servant or a bondservant that disobeys their master.
D.

[Guest]

Roblaine:

Assuming that giving my own life is not an option, I have only two options.

1. Let neighbor 1 kill neighbor two, and then neighbor 2 is dead and neighbor 1 is a murderer.

OR

2. Stop neighbor 1 from killing neighbor 2 even if that means taking neighbor 1's life. Then I have neighbor 2 alive and neighbor 1 is dead, but at least he is not visiting God as a murderer.

You seem to be assuming Neighbour 1 going to meet God upon his death.
If that is the case, aren't you sending him to Hell by killing him? If his last thought was his intent to murder, is he not guilty of murder? Jesus said that if you hate your brother, you have committed murder in your heart.

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

However, if you allow him to kill neighbour 1, then he may have a few more years of life and have an opportunity to repent. And you won't have the taking of human life (even if justified) on your conscience.

[Guest]

But yet if the "neighbor" on my right points a gun to the "neighbor" on my left and is about to shoot him, which neighbor am I to love? I understand when it's about defending yourself... but, as many of the others have pointed out, it's when others lives are at stake that it's not quite as clear. Which one (the one harming others, or the ones being harmed) are we to love more?

Stand in between them. Lay down your life for both of them. Even if you are killed, the impression you leave on the killer will hopefully lead them to repentance. If you kill the attacker, they have no chance at repentance.

Luk 9:52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
Luk 9:53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.

Jesus said this, yet also warned that they themselves would be killed for speaking in His name. We should be saving others souls, not trying to save our own lives.

Just a thought.

[Guest]

Jesus said this, yet also warned that they themselves would be killed for speaking in His name. We should be saving others souls, not trying to save our own lives.

Just a thought.

And a very important thought, at that.

[Guest]

Jesus said this, yet also warned that they themselves would be killed for speaking in His name. We should be saving others souls, not trying to save our own lives.

I agree Sean. I for one would not kill in order to preserve my own life. I hope all christians would agree on this point.


Robin

[Guest]

Hi Paidion,

You seem to be assuming Neighbour 1 going to meet God upon his death.
If that is the case, aren't you sending him to Hell by killing him? If his last thought was his intent to murder, is he not guilty of murder? Jesus said that if you hate your brother, you have committed murder in your heart.

Though I tend to lean towards universal reconciliation, you are correct. However, his own actions would be the catalyst that would lead to his death.

However, if you allow him to kill neighbor 1, then he may have a few more years of life and have an opportunity to repent. And you won't have the taking of human life (even if justified) on your conscience.

By not doing anything, I'm sure I would wear the guilt of neighbor 2's death on my conscience.

Personally, I don't like defending this position, because I'm actually more of a pacifist than it appears. At times by boys have mention wanting to be soldiers when they grow up. I always remind them of the "love your enemy" scripture and the importance of serving Jesus only. I suggest to them that if they want to serve in the military, that they should consider a non-combat position or one that would allow them to serve others. Perhaps as a medic, or Chaplin.

Robin

[_Derek]

Sorry guys, for some reason the little "folder" hasnn't been open on this thread to show me there's new messages.

Aaron,

How can you say that you have less to do with it than does this (also innocent) man? If you pay to support it with your money, even if it is the law, you are still supporting it. The perfect law of liberty (James 1:25) supercedes the laws of this nation. It's always been my understanding that if the law of this country tells me to do something that will force me into disobedience to Christ, I should not do it, even if it's paying taxes for the knowing 'murder' of innocent lives.

Well, the answer seems obvious to me. I am paying taxes with little to no thought as to how it is being spent, (something I need to work on!), and merely following the biblical teaching pertaining to taxes.

I have not said that all war is unjust (well, some are more just than others). That has not even entered into the conversation. I believe that God has established governments and militaries to keep some order in the world. My taxes may very well help save the lives of some soldiers by providing better equipment, medical supplies, etc. My concern is whether or not our calling as Christians is to participate in these wars by killing the enemy.

I am not talking about passivity here. I just think that we have a distinctly Christian role to play in this. A non vilolent, Jesus-like, pray for and love the enemy, the enemies soldiers, as well as our solodiers role.

Now if I were a soldier, I would have my hand on the trigger of a weapon that is directly taking the lives of the one I am commanded to love.

Even if I made a soldier's gun with my own hands, (not that I would), I think I could safely say that I had less to do with killing that the actual soldier that pulled the trigger! Think about it, if I work for a company that makes hunting rifles, am I somehow responsible if someone takes that rifle and kills someone? Not at all.

What if there is federal taxes taken from us to use for abortions - would you still pay taxes then? Well, I'll admit, I probably would for the very same reason you gave. I'm not certain that I would though. It's hard to say right now. But I would be taking part in an evil thing with my money.

Well, they do take your money and use it to fund Planned Parenthood, who performs abortions. They get around the obvious moral dillemma by saying that P.P. doesn't use "that money" to fund abortions! How silly is that. You may have to stop paying your taxes after all!

There are some Christians who do not pay taxes for the very reasons we are discussing.

Jesus told Peter to pay the money found by catching the fish to the Roman government as their tax money, and the Roman government did not do only godly things (to say the least) with that money. But by paying into it, they were involved in every process of the Roman government.

I disagre for the same reasons given above. Are you saying that by saying this, Jesus was endorsing the practice of crucifixtion? Flogging, torture and other common practices of the Roman Govt?

From what I understand about it, Derek, it seems you feel that to pay money into a system that is funding evil, you are part of that evil. Do you feel that you should not pay taxes?

I don't feel that I am part of that evil, because I have nothing at all to do with what they use "Ceasars money", (i.e. not my money) for.

God bless,

[_Derek]

Is a word of God required in order to launch a just war? I think not. Did the US receive a word from God before entering WWII? Was it unjust to fight the Nazis and imperialist Japan?

Was it unjust to murder thousands and thousands of innocent Japanese when we dropped atomic bombs on their country?

The primary abjection of our military is to protect American citizens.

Do you not think that this is the primary obligation of the enemies military? Not necessarly the leaders, but the military itself?

Also, to suggest that the US has not been involved in the humanitarian efforts in Africa is incorrect.

Rwanda comes to mind. We did very little to intervene there. I'm not saying it's our responsibility or anything. Only that altruism is not necessarliy the US's main reason for entering into combat. As I said, there are a myriad of political reasons.

And how much propaganda does one have to hear in order to accept the mass killing of Jews, and Christians at the hands of Nazis? How much propaganda does it take to accept the brutal treatment of prisoners at the hands of Islamists, like the sawing off of one's head while they are still alive? No, I think this goes beyond propaganda. It comes down to fighting what is obviously evil, and those that perpetrate evil acts against innocent and defenseless people.

Those things are bad. No question. But why does this mean that the Christian must take up arms? As opposed to getting on their knees? Remember God is sovereign over the affairs of the world. What if all of the Christians who take up arms fasted and prayed and called on God instead? We've never done this, so we don't even know. That's a little weird to me.

Let's also not forget that war is not the only means to attaind justice. Ghandi ran the whole of Great Brittain out of India without picking up a single gun. The fight for civil rights was primarily pacifistic as well. Both great victories. The pacifistic people were often brutalized, but in the end they won out. I think that this reflects the teaching of Paul:

Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

If I refuse to Kill my enemy and love him, and in turn he kills more and more. Am I not being unloving to my enemy’s victims? Are we not called to love everyone, not only our enemies? If I sat by and allowed my unsaved neighbors to be murdered, would that not be unloving?

How are we to know what effect loving our enemies will have if we are always choosing to shoot at them instead?

And again, if my neighbor is being hurt, I think I should help. That is different than pledging allegiance to an organisation, as a Christian, who's #1 business is to kill the enemy.

Quote:

Anyway, I know I said I was going to bring up some scriptures. This is my last post without scriptues.

Regardless, I’ve enjoyed the conversation.

Well, I've broken my promise twice now. I havn't had time to get back to this thread. Soon.

God bless bro,

[Guest]

Derek, I want to believe all you have written on this issue. It seems to be in accord with Christ's teachings. Yet, somehow, I can't put my whole heart and soul in that stance. There are just to many valid reasons for protecting the innocent. Most of us believe we would do what it takes to protect our families or even strangers from violent attack. War can be the same thing, except on a larger scale.

However, I will not debate with you in this matter. I guess the reason is that I want to accept what you are saying --- to accept that it as our Lord's answer ---- His teaching.