A Remnant of Christians in Bethlehem

Post by **__id_1302** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:00 am

Allyn wrote:I believe the physical land has nothing to do with anything nowadays...

Except that deceived millions of Christians say that God has ordered that the occupants of the land who call themselves "Jews" must be protected, supported, and blessed... while all criticism is called antisemitism... while it is illegal to be a Christian evangelist in the land that today is claimed as "Israel"... and those in the land where it is taught that Jesus was a false prophet and that Messiah did not come in the flesh are supported with more billions of U. S. dollars in foreign aid than any other nation gets... and Israel's enemies are more than ever focused on bringing down its greatest supporter. Perhaps God is not pleased with the U.S.

It is even said by supporters of the modern nation called Israel that there is a curse from God on anyone who does not reverently bless and support those who call themselves "Jewish" and their modern nation that calls itself "Israel". They curse president Bush with the same tongue that blesses "Israel", blaming every calamity that happens in the U.S. on his imagined failure to bless all that is "Jewish".

Otherwise, I agree with you.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

Post by **__id_1679** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:08 am

I don't think being "genetically correct" really has little (if anything) to do with the promises made to Abraham. What are we to make of the Land promises in relation to the New Covenant prophecies though? It is very clear that God promised not only a "New Covenant" with Israel, but it also included peace with security in the Land under "David" (in type Jesus). We should also take into consideration that there is currently a believing Remnant in the Land now who follow Jesus as the Messiah of Israel. What are we to make of this? David was long dead when Jerimiah and Ezekiel prohesied.
Again, Steve argues his case against the popular dispensationalist view.
That's fine. But he still leaves some questions unanswered, IMO.

Praying for "Israel",
In Jesus,
Bob

Post by **__id_1302** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:05 pm

Traveler wrote:I don't think being "genetically correct" really has little (if anything) to do with the promises made to Abraham. What are we to make of the Land promises in relation to the New Covenant prophecies though? It is very clear that God promised not only a "New Covenant" with Israel, but it also included peace with security in the Land under "David" (in type Jesus). We should also take into consideration that there is currently a believing Remnant in the Land now who follow Jesus as the Messiah of Israel. What are we to make of this? David was long dead when Jerimiah and Ezekiel prohesied.
Again, Steve argues his case against the popular dispensationalist view.
That's fine. But he still leaves some questions unanswered, IMO.

Praying for "Israel",
In Jesus,
Bob

John 18:33-39 (NASB)
John 18:33 Therefore Pilate entered again into the Praetorium, and summoned Jesus and said to Him, "Are You the King of the Jews?"
John 18:34 Jesus answered, "Are you saying this on your own initiative, or did others tell you about Me?"
John 18:35 Pilate answered, "I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests delivered You to me; what have You done?"
John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."
John 18:37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say {correctly} that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."
John 18:38 Pilate *said to Him, "What is truth?" And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews and *said to them, "I find no guilt in Him.
John 18:39 "But you have a custom that I release someone for you at the Passover; do you wish then that I release for you the King of the Jews?"

Also:

John 19:19-22 (NASB)
John 19:19 Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It was written, "JESUS THE NAZARENE, THE KING OF THE JEWS."
John 19:20 Therefore many of the Jews read this inscription, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Latin {and} in Greek.
John 19:21 So the chief priests of the Jews were saying to Pilate, "Do not write, 'The King of the Jews'; but that He said, 'I am King of the Jews.' "
John 19:22 Pilate answered, "What I have written I have written."

And:

Matthew 28:18-20 (NASB)
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Mat 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
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*Blue coloring for emphasis is mine.

The land promise was fulfilled. Jesus Christ confirmed a new covenant with His own blood and now rules a kingdom that is "not of this realm," though He also has authority on earth.

Blessings.
Lazarus43

Post by **_Allyn** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:02 pm

Traveler, would you be more specific as to what question Steve left unanswered. Me thinks its more that you insist that the rement is only Jewish people but when in fact Paul clearly says that the remnant is made up of all believing people. So would you be specific please?

Post by **__id_1679** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:49 am

Hi Laz,

What does Jesus mean by "my kingdom is not of this world or realm"?
Couldn't it simply mean "derived", or not of "human origin"? If Jesus fulfills the Davidic type in messianic prophecy, then it appears the "Land" promises have yet to be completed.
The word Remnant as used by Paul means "Israel". Remember that he taught the gentiles were "grafted" in. Doesn't God have the right to add to the Remnant as He sees fit in every generation from among the Jews? Didn't Jesus teach that salvation was of the Jews, and that He came to seek the "lost sheep of Israel? Or Paul who stated that salvation is to the Jew first, then the gentile? Look, I don't belive the current political "Israel" is the one who has the inherent right to the land. I've already given my reasons why with scripture in another post.
You haven't demonstrated from scripture that the land promises have been fulfilled. The land promises are with security and an everlasting peace under the New Covenant. That has not happened. I see no good reason to "spiritualize" those prophecies which were made to a real people in a real time and place. "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven" Matt.6:10. IMO, not everything appears to be acomplished yet. BTW, I am not a "dispensationalist" in the Hal Lindsey sense. However, I do believe the bible can be studied from an epochal point of view through the various covenants God made with His people. Some of the features of these covenant promises overlap into the others. Ultimately of course, Jesus fulfills all, and is the True Israel of God and was completely obedient to the Fathers will. There is no "special pass" for Jews just because they are "Jews". Apart from a relationship in Christ, they are as lost as any other unbeliever.
With that in mind, it really doesn't mean much anyway does it? Your salvation and mine are in Christ, not the Land. Amen?

In Him,
Bob

Post by **_Rae** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:53 am

Lazarus said:

those in the land where it is taught that Jesus was a false prophet and that Messiah did not come in the flesh are supported with more billions of U. S. dollars in foreign aid than any other nation gets

Ryan and I had the opportunity to go to Israel about four years ago. We were able to meet with a pastor there who is affiliated with a large but not main-stream denomination here in the US. The church that he pastors helps give jobs and minister to refugees that live close to them. They are very much hurting for funds for the much needed work that they are doing there.

The leaders of his denomination had recently made a trip to Israel to give to Ariel Sharon a large sum of money that they had taken up from the congregations here in the U.S. to "bless" Israel. It was sad how the needs of the Christians who are working and laboring hard in Israel were overlooked and neglected, while the secular country, which already has TONS of money, was given extra by the "church" just so they could say that they had blessed the nation of Israel (therefore they will be blessed).

The pastor of that church, as well as our tour guide and leader of the trip (all who are premil dispensationalists) thought it was horrible too.

Post by **_Rick_C** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:36 am

Hello Rae,

You wrote:Ryan and I had the opportunity to go to Israel about four years ago. We were able to meet with a pastor there who is affiliated with a large but not main-stream denomination here in the US. The church that he pastors helps give jobs and minister to refugees that live close to them. They are very much hurting for funds for the much needed work that they are doing there.

It's always great to hear of folks who are trying to make a difference in that region.

You also wrote:The leaders of his denomination had recently made a trip to Israel to give to Ariel Sharon a large sum of money that they had taken up from the congregations here in the U.S. to "bless" Israel. It was sad how the needs of the Christians who are working and laboring hard in Israel were overlooked and neglected, while the secular country, which already has TONS of money, was given extra by the "church" just so they could say that they had blessed the nation of Israel (therefore they will be blessed).

Israel probably doesn't really need any extra funds other than what we (via our U.S. tax dollars) are already giving them. If they truly needed more money in order to preserve their democracy, Washington D.C. would be sure they would get it.

You also wrote:The pastor of that church, as well as our tour guide and leader of the trip (all who are premil dispensationalists) thought it was horrible too.

The "group" who gave money to the Israeli government were, apparently, much more committed to dispensationalism than this pastor and tour guide. And since this group believed they would get a "blessing" for doing this...they probably already got it...(whatever it really was)....

I know that some dispensationalists like Jay Sekulow, and even Pat Robertson, are now reporting what is happening to our fellow Christians in Israel, Palestine, and the entire region. Sekulow asks folks to pray for Christians there. I don't know if he or Robertson have any programs that offer assistance or not. Robertson's "Operation Blessing" might be doing work there...I don't know...and will try to find out.
In Christ,
Rick

Post by **_Rick_C** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:52 am

Hello Bob,

I really think you should listen to Steve Gregg's lectures: "What are we to make of Israel?" and "Romans 9-11" (to at least be informed of non-dispensational views).....
TC, Rick

Post by **_Rick_C** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:05 am

Laz,

Israel is a democracy. But you are correct in that they do not have the same level of religious freedom as we do in the U.S. We probably have more freedom along these lines than any country in the world.

Your point about Christians giving money to a government that has "standards against conversion" is a good one.

You wrote:... while it is illegal to be a Christian evangelist in the land that today is claimed as "Israel"...

It is not completely illegal. The Gospel can be preached in public in Israel but I'm not sure what their regulations are on it. (David Wilkerson, Benny Hinn, and others have held meetings in the country). I imagine you have to get a permit and it is an "invitational" event...Come if you want to. It may be that Christian meetings are held only in Christian sections of the country? I don't really know a whole lot about this....
Rick

Post by **__id_1302** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:07 am

I have recently read about a Christian who had lived in Israel for many years, but was now being refused permission to live there based on suspicions that he was acting as a Christian missionary. He denied the charge. According to an August 16, 2007 United Press International report of a Jerusalem Post article which can be read at source link, "Proselytizing is banned by the Jewish state, the newspaper said.

Perhaps it may not be exactly illegal, but evangelical Christians had better remember not to evangelize or they will be considered the same as "groups that regard terrorism as a form of freedom fighting."

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Caveats of the Knesset Christian Allies Caucus

The caucus condemns and refuses alliances with any groups that pursue the conversion of Jews to Christianity.

The caucus refuses coalitions with groups that regard terrorism as a form of freedom fighting.
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Excerpt quoted from: Knesset Christian Allies Caucus, from the Knesset Lobbies section of the Knesset Website.

Blessings,
Lazarus43