Resurrection and Judgment

[Guest]

This too is assuming that God's justice means that everyone gets what they deserve (e.g., "eye for eye"). Christ rejected this type of justice.

Matt 5:38-39
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile,

Todd, Thanks for your response i'll respond to the rest asap but as for this i disagree that Christ rejected what God had previously called justice.
What Jesus is saying here is that this is how WE are to act toward evil doers because it is not for us to play judge,jury and jailer.
God reserves the right to administer justice and whether He uses "eye for eye" justice or complete forgiveness is His business.

[Guest]

This too is assuming that God's justice means that everyone gets what they deserve (e.g., "eye for eye"). Christ rejected this type of justice.



OK at least i finally understand one of the two deaths in your view is spiritual death. I really did'nt follow your discussion with Derek due to lack of time.
Re judgment and how Jesus will implement it "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces but on whomever it falls , it will scatter him like dust" Matt 21.44
Broken to pieces and scatter like dust? That sounds different then the outlook you are invisioning.
Now i'm waiting for you to tell me it's a spiritual breaking and scattering to dust.

[Guest]

"And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces but on whomever it falls , it will scatter him like dust" Matt 21.44
Broken to pieces and scatter like dust? That sounds different then the outlook you are invisioning.
Now i'm waiting for you to tell me it's a spiritual breaking and scattering to dust.

Steve,

I fully realize that there are many judgment scriptures that sound ominous. It could very well be that they are to be taken literally. The problem I have with this approach is that it leads you to the traditional view of hell which I don't believe is correct.

Let's look at the scripture you have quoted. Is Christ literally a stone? No, of course not. So, it must be a metaphor. Therefore, doesn't it make sense that the "scattering" and "breaking" might also be metaphors for something?

Todd

[Guest]

I fully realize that there are many judgment scriptures that sound ominous. It could very well be that they are to be taken literally. The problem I have with this approach is that it leads you to the traditional view of hell which I don't believe is correct.

Let's look at the scripture you have quoted. Is Christ literally a stone? No, of course not. So, it must be a metaphor. Therefore, doesn't it make sense that the "scattering" and "breaking" might also be metaphors for something?


Todd, i think when we evaluate scripture we have to try to be objective and not accept or reject based on where we think it might lead. Besides isn't the traditional view of hell, eternal and not remedial which can be the end result to what sound like ominous verses.
Yes the scattering and breaking can be metaphorical for breaking a person's will to be rebellious toward God. But i still for the life of me can't see it happening in this life for the vast majority of unbelievers.

[Guest]

Hi Todd,

This post would have been more fitting near the beginning of this thread, but I was busy about other things while this thread was growing. You wondered if there were any scriptures that placed the resurrection and the judgment at the same time.

It seems to me that the simplest understanding of all the passages on these subjects would be to place both at the second coming, which, I think, is an event of the "last day." Jesus said that He would raise up His own "on the last day" (John 6:39, 40, 44, 54), and that those who reject Him will also be judged "on the last day" (John 12:48).

Also, the resurrection is placed at the second coming of Christ in 1 Thes.4:16-17, whereas the judgment is also placed at the coming of Christ in Matt.25:31ff and 2 Tim.4:1.

There are other things that apparently occur at the second coming (e.g., our seeing Jesus face-to-face, our glorification, the renewing of the creation from the curse, our reigning with Christ and judging angels), but all these features are never mentioned together in a single verse.

It seems that the easiest harmony of all the data places the resurrection and judgment together (even as they are listed together in Hebrews 6:3), and if the main reason to find an alternative explanation is to avoid the traditional doctrine of hell, I would say:

1) avoiding the doctrine of hell (or serving the interest of any other doctrinal agenda) cannot be our guiding principle in pursuing an objective exegesis of specific texts; and

2) the resurrection and judgment can be kept together without necessitating the embracing of the traditional doctrine of hell.

[Guest]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your insights into this discussion. Yes, indeed there are a number of scriptures which place "Judgment Day" on the "last day," and a number of others which also place the resurrection on the "last day." This is a good way to approach this subject. When Christ returns there will be some sort of judgment, and there will also be resurrection(s). But none of these scriptures really tell us the order of these events. I think it is extremely important to know the order. If the resurrection occurs before the judgment/punishment, then all three major views of hell remain possible. However, if the judgment/punishment occurs before the resurrection, then a new possibility must be considered.

It could be that "Judgment Day" and it's associated punishment (correction) lasts only for one day; which is immediately followed by the resurrection of all of creation unto immortality. Is there anything in these scriptures which would make this scenario unlikely? Would it be possible for God to "convince all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds" (Jude 15) in one day?....so that they could then (at the end of that day) be raised with every knee bowing and every tongue confessing that Christ is Lord? Maybe this is why it is call "Judgment Day" instead of "Judgment Week" or "Judgment Age."

I suppose that some (or most) would answer this question by saying the judgment only lasts a day but the punishment is "eternal." But "eternal" does not necessarily mean "without end" (John 17:3). It could also mean that the punishment has its causal source in the Eternal God. So the debate continues.........

There is one passage of scripture which specifically tells us of an order of events. This is 1 Cor 15. I will agree that much detail is missing, but it appears to me that all Judgment/correction is completed before the destruction of death, because Paul said that death was the last enemy.

Todd

[Guest]

1) avoiding the doctrine of hell (or serving the interest of any other doctrinal agenda) cannot be our guiding principle in pursuing an objective exegesis of specific texts; and

Steve,

While this may be a true statement, I think it is necessary that if one believes a certain doctrine to be incorrect (for whatever reason), it is then necessary to consider alternate interpretations to determine if they might be valid. However, if the alternate interpretations are determined to be invalid, it may be necessary to return to the first conclusion, or, to consider yet another.

2) the resurrection and judgment can be kept together without necessitating the embracing of the traditional doctrine of hell.

I agree.

Todd

[Guest]

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to




Todd, Even if spiritual death is the second death and ultimately all things are under Christ's feet , Paul does'nt give any time frame. All he says is "then comes the end" which to interpret as "immediately" is reading into this something which is not stated here.
You simply have to look elsewhere for descriptions of judgment of unbelievers because it simply isn't addressed here.

[Guest]

Todd, Even if spiritual death is the second death and ultimately all things are under Christ's feet , Paul does'nt give any time frame. All he says is "then comes the end" which to interpret as "immediately" is reading into this something which is not stated here.
You simply have to look elsewhere for descriptions of judgment of unbelievers because it simply isn't addressed here.

Hi Steve7150,

You are correct, we do have to look elsewhere. That is what Steve Gregg did in his post where he says that the resurrection and the judgment are said to both happen on the same day - the "last day." All I have done is suggest a scenario which is consistent with Steve Gregg's post and also consistent with Paul's "order" which places the resurrection "last."

Todd

[Guest]

All I have done is suggest a scenario which is consistent with Steve Gregg's post and also consistent with Paul's "order" which places the resurrection "last."

Todd, I see judgement as last, not resurrection and in other places the time frame for it is described as "aionios" which is an undefined amount of time. However i think "aionios" although unspecific implies an extended amount of time.
For example in the parable of the wheat and tares the ungodly are first removed and then thrown into the furnace to be burned. This burning which hopefully means purification we know from other places happens over an "aionios" time frame which does'nt sound like a 24 hour day to me.