UNCLE JOE AND THE SECRET BASEMENT CHAMBER OF BAD BOB

Post by **_Derek** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:31 am

I'll put in my 2 cents on this point. The word "perish" as it is used in John 3:16 does not refer to physical death. It refers to someone who is overcome in their own sinfulness. Someone can be "dead" in sin. Just like this woman....

If you look up all of the occurences of the word perish (occurs around 30 times), only about a handful of them can be interpreted this way. Of those instances, compared with the normal usage of the word, I would say that they still refer to death. Like when Paul refers to "them that perish". I think he means that they are dyeing, with no hope of life (unless they repent). They are recieving the wages of sin.

Look at Peters use of the word in 2 Peter 3:9.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The Lord is here said to be waiting for the day of judgement, because He wishes that none should perish. He is giving people time to repent, because when He comes back, that's it. Then comes the judgement. If "perish" meant simply to be unhappy, bitter, etc in this life, then this verse doesn't make much sense.

I am not saying that feeling those things is not a part of "perishing", and that feeling the opposite of those things is not part of eternal life, but thats not all.

God bless,

Post by **_Derek** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:34 am

So why is BRIMSTONE in the lake of fire? Perhaps because God is in the Lake of Fire or perhaps God is the Lake of Fire. "Our God is a consuming fire" Heb 12.29.

I don't think that God is there. Only His judgement. Of those "who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus", it is said:

2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might...

Post by **_Paidion** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:28 pm

2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might...

The punishment of aionian destruction is truly "away from the presence of the Lord", away from the presence of Him whose dwelling is chiefly in heaven. But from that, one cannot conclude that the presence of the Lord will not be in Hell.

Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. KJV

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:54 pm

2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might...

But again we come to these idioms like "eternal" or "forever" and are they literal.
Take this verse , since everyone is raised to face Christ as he sits in the judgement seat, they will be resurrected and they do stand in his presence even if it is to be judged therefore this verse really can't be literal.

Post by **_Derek** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:23 pm

Paidion wrote:
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might...
The punishment of aionian destruction is truly "away from the presence of the Lord", away from the presence of Him whose dwelling is chiefly in heaven. But from that, one cannot conclude that the presence of the Lord will not be in Hell.

Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. KJV

This is not hell, but sheol, the hebrew equvilent to hades in the Greek. The "grave".

Post by **_Derek** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:24 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might...

But again we come to these idioms like "eternal" or "forever" and are they literal.
Take this verse , since everyone is raised to face Christ as he sits in the judgement seat, they will be resurrected and they do stand in his presence even if it is to be judged therefore this verse really can't be literal.

This verse would be after the judgement, in my opinion. This happens when He comes on "that day", which I take to be judgement day. And I might add that I am taking the "eternal" here literally in that the punishment is eternal, and not necessarilly the punishing

Post by **_PAULESPINO** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:07 am

The writer said:

It is hard to believe that an omnipotent God of infinite love with all eternity to work with cannot find a way of bringing all beings into fellowship with himself. My personal hope is that he will.

There is no question that God can bring all of us in fellowship with him in a snap of his finger but as an Arminian I believe that God will not do that because he has given us free choice. We can see in the historical Bible that God bring people back to his fellowship again and again through his disciplinary actions and he does this because he loves us.

If God is love he will not send people to be tormented in hell forever.

This is a philosophical statement which is not entirely true. It is true that God is love but it is not true that God will not send the people who chose to rebel against him in hell. First of all let me ask this question: Do you think God is love even though he will throw Satan in the lake of fire? If your answer is yes then you should have no difficulty in accepting that God will also throw people who rebel against him in the lake of fire because those who don't accept Christ are a "Type of Satan"

Check Ephesians 2:1-3

" As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath."

Read this passage carefully and you will see that if we are not in Christ we are in Satan; therefore if people are not being transformed into the image of Christ then they are being transformed into the image of Satan. And if you believe that Satan must be thrown into the lake of fire for rebelling against God how come it is so difficult for you to accept that those who are a type Satan (people who continually rebel against God) will not be thrown into the lake of fire forever.