Is anybody else a little weary of this...?

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_brody_in_ga
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Post by _brody_in_ga » Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:44 pm

AARONDISNEY wrote:Jesus hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors because they were in need of Him and He was there to offer them Himself. If POD is at Ozzfest to win people to the Lord and that is their only goal...that's one thing, but is that what they are there for? Or are they there to "rock out" with the Ozz man?

I took your word for it, Mort. But if they are touring with Ozzy Osbourne and whatever other trash he tours with, I tend to be reverting back to my gut instinct about them.
Not only that, I don't think P.O.D have the slightest clue as to what Christianity is really about. From reading there interviews and such, I get the feeling that they tend to think that mentioning the word God somehow relates them to Christianity. If this is the case, then every other rock band out there should fall under the catogory of Christian. Because they all mention the word God in some manner.

I must interject this thought before I go any further, I am saying these things as a musician who enjoys all kind of music that doesn't have anything to do with Jesus or the gospel. But thats where I feel the line needs to be drawed. Sure, I like to crank out some Ozzy every now and then, but I would never try and "Christianize" it. Even some songs that mention God and prayer don't nessesarily fall under the category of Christian.

Just my 2 cents.
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_Mort_Coyle
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:52 pm

So Brody, you are saying that the members of POD are not Christians, despite their claim that they are?
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_brody_in_ga
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Post by _brody_in_ga » Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:18 pm

Mort_Coyle wrote:So Brody, you are saying that the members of POD are not Christians, despite their claim that they are?
Hi Mort.

I will answer your question in the form of another question.
Are Mormons not Christian despite there claim of being Christian?

I don't know if P.O.D fall into the catagory of unsaved/saved, but I pity any Christian that goes to Ozzfest to check these guys out.
And lets face it, the bible says " - 1Cr 15:33 - Do not be deceived: "Evil company corrupts good habits."
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_AARONDISNEY
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Post by _AARONDISNEY » Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:10 pm

Mort_Coyle wrote:And Aaron, as far as Ozzy and the "trash he tours with", I'm sorry, but lost people are not trash. In fact, they are so valuable that God gave His only begotten Son for them...
The lifestyle they promote and the music they produce is pure trash....absolute garbage. The people are not trash though.
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:53 pm

Are Mormons not Christian despite there claim of being Christian?
I cannot presume to know the spiritual status of individual Mormons without asking them what they, as an individual, believe. Mormonism, on the other hand, is clearly not Christian. The doctrinal statements of Mormonism deny the deity of Christ, the Atonement, the Resurrection, etc.

Are you saying that the members of POD do not profess orthodox Christianity? If so, I'd be curious to know which essential Christian doctrines they deny. Or is this another example of guilt by association?

I feel strange, btw, being put in the position of "defending" POD, since I'm not particularly a fan of theirs. As the father of a teenager, I've listened to a few of their CDs and read their lyrics (as I do with all my son's music). They struck me as authentic and original, both musically and lyrically. I think we must be very careful about maligning brothers and sisters in Christ without very good reason.

As I understand it, they don't profess to be a "Christian" band (that makes music for Christians), but a band comprised of Christians who make music which expresses their worldview. I'm curious, do you have the same misgivings about U2?
I don't know if P.O.D fall into the catagory of unsaved/saved, but I pity any Christian that goes to Ozzfest to check these guys out.
And lets face it, the bible says " - 1Cr 15:33 - Do not be deceived: "Evil company corrupts good habits."
I would not recommend that a young person go to Ozzfest, but I think it's cool that there is a Christian presence there. Perhaps they will be used by the Holy Spirit to nudge some kid closer to Jesus.

As a former professional musician, I can tell you that concerts nowadays are a business, not a party. Oftentimes the opening act never even gets to meet the headliner. If there is an opportunity to mingle though, then what a great place for Christians to be. I remember reading in Kerry Livgren's autobiography (Livgren was the guitarist and primary songwriter for Kansas) how Livgren became a Christian as a result of being witnessed to by their opening act.

It's interesting that you quoted Paul from 1 Cor. 15:33. Paul is actually quoting the Greek playwrite Menander (342-291 B.C.) here. Imagine that, Paul using a "secular" source! This is the same Paul, by the way, who went to Mars Hill and spoke to the "men of Athens" (Acts 17:22-31).
Apparently, at the Areopagus, Paul was surrounded by pagans!
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:09 pm

The lifestyle they promote and the music they produce is pure trash....absolute garbage. The people are not trash though.
I take it that's a retraction of your earlier statement then?

Of course the lifestyle is trash - they're lost!

Some of the music is pretty good though! Lost people can make appealing music. Much of it, though, I don't care for either.
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_TK
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Post by _TK » Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:00 pm

the question becomes: to what length should Christians go to make themselves palatable to the lost they are trying to reach?

sure, Jesus spent time with sinners. but he didnt compromise. he didnt try to "look" like them.

for many years, the lost were reached with the gospel of jesus christ. doesnt that work any more?

now, it seems we have to resort to christian "night clubs" and christian death metal bands. we have to resort to "bibles" masquerading as a maxim magazine look-alike (there's one that looks like Cosmo for the ladies).

it is so easy to say that "the end justifies the means." however, the Bible tells us to separate from worldly ways. christians arent supposed to look like the world. or are they?

TK
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:13 pm

sure, Jesus spent time with sinners. but he didnt compromise. he didnt try to "look" like them.
Jesus probably looked a lot like them since they were of the same race, culture and socio-economic class.
for many years, the lost were reached with the gospel of jesus christ. doesnt that work any more?
The problem isn't the Gospel. The problem is that the church is still trying to used methods of evangelism that were relevant 50 or 100 years ago. That wineskin can no longer hold the new wine.

Are you familiar with the Engel Scale of Spiritual Decision? It was developed by Missiologist James Engel to describe the progress that individuals and groups take in understanding the Gospel, as the Holy Spirit draws them. Here are the degrees on the Engel scale (read it from the bottom up):

+5 Stewardship
+4 Communion with God
+3 Conceptual and behavioural growth
+2 Incorporation into Body
+1 Post-decision evaluation
New birth
-1 Repentance and faith in Christ
-2 Decision to act
-3 Personal problem recognition
-4 Positive attitude towards Gospel
-5 Grasp implications of Gospel
-6 Awareness of fundamentals of Gospel
-7 Initial awareness of Gospel
-8 Awareness of supreme being, no knowledge of Gospel

Most people have multiple encounters with Christians before actually accepting Christ themselves. Hopefully, these encounters are positive and bump the person up the scale.
now, it seems we have to resort to christian "night clubs" and christian death metal bands. we have to resort to "bibles" masquerading as a maxim magazine look-alike (there's one that looks like Cosmo for the ladies).
My issue with these things is that they often exist primarily (it seems) to entertain Christians. We have Christian "night clubs" so that Christians can have the night club experience without having to mingle with lost people. We have "Christianized" copies of secular bands that play concerts for Christian teens and sell their CD's in Christian bookstores and get airplay on Christian radio. It's a Christian ghetto. Instead of being "in the world, but not of the world" we've walled ourselves off from the world.

My point all along has been that I respect Christians who do get out
into the world in order to reflect Christ into those dark places. Obviously wisdom, maturity, accountability and not going it alone are all very important.
it is so easy to say that "the end justifies the means." however, the Bible tells us to separate from worldly ways. christians arent supposed to look like the world. or are they?
I don't know... Didn't Paul say, "Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings." - 1 Cor 9:19-23 ?

What are Christians supposed to look like? Geeks in lime green leisure suits? Shouldn't we look like the people we hope to bring Christ to? Are you familiar with the story of Hudson Taylor? He founded the China Inland Mission in the mid-1800's and had tremendous success in bringing the Gospel to the Chinese. When Taylor first went to China, however, the missionaries had had a terrible track record. Of course, they were European and insisted on maintaining their European manner of dress, eating European food, living in European style houses, etc. Taylor caused a scandal by adopting Chinese dress, growing his hair out into a "queue" (he actually wore a wig until his real hair grew), living amongst the Chinese, eating their food, etc. He identified with them and became one of them while still being a faithful Christian. The results were profound.
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_TK
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Post by _TK » Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:38 am

When I say "look like the world" i don't mean literally "look" like them. of course jesus looked Jewish and all that.

and i guess i'll have to throw away my lime green leisure suits.

it seems that the church has lost confidence in the power of the gospel. I used to help out with the youth group in our church and i used to get frustrated with youth pastor because he felt like he had to "water down" the gospel so kids would listen. i said "let them have it" and leave the results to God. he was horrified of scaring kids away with a strong gospel message. it's not his fault; a lot of youth group "propaganda" out there encouraged this way of thinking. then again, i could have been wrong and maybe he was right.

Mort-- you said:
The problem is that the church is still trying to used methods of evangelism that were relevant 50 or 100 years ago. That wineskin can no longer hold the new wine.
this may be true-- i dont have a problem with new evangelistic methods as long as the true gospel is conveyed. generating an exciting outreach event is only part of the equation-- the gospel has to be preached.

In regard to groups like POD-- they claim to be Christians and i have no reason to doubt that. i don't know what their testimony is to the other bands when out on tours like Ozzfest. i would certainly hope their life behind the scenes and their words are a testimony to their unsaved rockers and fans. if however, they rely solely on their lyrics whch are often indecipherable, to convey something of a christian message, that would be a concern. sure, they can do what they want. but if they look like the world and smell like the world...

what about what AW Tozer said that i brought up earlier-- is he just an old fuddy duddy who has nothing to say to our generation? here it is again:

Large and influential sections of the world of fundamental Christianity have gone overboard for practices wholly unscriptural, altogether unjustifiable in the light of historic Christian truth and deeply damaging to the inner life of the individual Christian. They have imitated the world, sought popular favor, manufactured delights to substitute for the joy of the Lord and produced a cheap and synthetic power to substitute for the power of the Holy Ghost. The glowworm has taken the place of the bush that burned and scintillating personalities now answer to the fire that fell at Pentecost.

does putting a christian twist on things that are generally considered sinful, with the purported goal of reaching the lost, thereby make them acceptable in the sight of God?

When paul talked about becoming a slave to everyone, i think he meant that he didn't talk deep theology with brute roman soldiers, and he put on his best rhetoric when talking to the educated greeks. he didnt party hearty with the greeks (and their young boys) and say he was doing it in the name of jesus.

this is not an easy issue and i am glad we are discussing it. it just seems to me that the seeker sensitive movement has really "shallowed" the church. i think the trend needs to be corrected, but it may be too far gone to do so, without genuine revival.

a final thought from Mr. Ravenhill"

And there's no room for Him in the inn.
He got a bit older, there was no room in His family, His family turned on Him.
He went to the temple, no room in the temple, the temple turned on Him.
And when He died there was no room to bury Him, He died outside of the city.
Well why in God's Name do you expect to be accepted everywhere?
How is it that the world couldn't get on with the holiest Man that ever lived and can get on with you and me?

Are we compromised? Are we compromised?

Have we no spiritual stature?
Have we no righteousness that reflects on their corruption?


TK
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_JC
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Post by _JC » Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:06 am

It seems as though a polarity exists on this topic. I'm somewhere in middle. I think Paul was very concerned about not "sticking out" in society by his instructions on hair length and other social customs. One might argue that Paul was living in a more pure society but that would neglect an understanding of the historical period.

In Paul (And Jesus' day) you would often find innocent slaves who were forced to fight wild animals, town orgies, corrupt governments, mass prostitution, etc. Today's society, which has been infused with Christian principles for centuries, more or less, seems much more tame and mild compared to the first century.

I think it's importatant not to be too quick to judge something or someone who seems unspiritual (though we must judge). I've heard a lot of negative press about Rick Warren but he's made a profound impact on my wife. Would Christ be angered by this? Not if Christ is same one we find in the gospels. Discernment is a quality we Christians must poccess, but we must be careful not to slip into cynicism.
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