Women in Leadership

Post by **_Homer** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:29 pm

Steve, et al,

Thanks Steve for the tip re the book "Women in the Church...", I have ordered it, and "Heavenly Man", based on the comments on the thread re books.

Blessings, Homer

Post by **_Rae** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:07 am

Steve wrote:The idea that Paul has in mind the Gnostic beliefs referenced by Jesusfollower seems to me speculative in the extreme.

Is it speculative because what the Gnostics actually believed ins't documented or verifiable?

Post by **_Jesusfollower** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:11 am

Rae,
I Suffer Not a Woman: Rethinking I Timothy 2.11-15 in Light of Ancient Evidence, Richard and Catherine Clark Kroeger, Baker: 1992

The type of reverse-Bible story we have in the passage (that Eve was created first; and that Adam was the one deceived) is obviously a distortion of an OT teaching, in keeping with pre-Christian expansions/reversal stories of the time

The false teachers are characterized by an interest in myths (I Tim 1:4; 4:7; Titus. 1:14; 2 Tim. 4:4) and genealogies (I Tim. 1:4; Tit. 3:9), a concern with the law or a Jewish orientation (I Tim. 1:7; Titus. 1:10, 14; 3:9), an interest in "antitheses" that they identify as "knowledge" (1 Tim. 6:20), a tendency toward controversy, argumentation, and speculation (1 Tim. 1:4, 6: 6:4, 20; Titus. 1:10; 3:9; 2 Tim. 2:14, 16,23), deceptiveness (1 Tim. 4:1-3; Titus. 1:10-13: 2 Tim 3:6ff., especially v.13), immorality ( 1 Tim. 1:19, 20; Titus. 1:15, 16; 2 Ti. 2:16, 19; ch. 3), and desire to get material gain by means of their teaching (1 Tim. 6:5; Titus. 1:11; 2 Tim. 3:2, 4).

Post by **_Homer** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:00 pm

The false teachers are characterized by an interest in myths (I Tim 1:4; 4:7; Titus. 1:14; 2 Tim. 4:4) and genealogies (I Tim. 1:4; Tit. 3:9), a concern with the law or a Jewish orientation (I Tim. 1:7; Titus. 1:10, 14; 3:9), an interest in "antitheses" that they identify as "knowledge" (1 Tim. 6:20), a tendency toward controversy, argumentation, and speculation (1 Tim. 1:4, 6: 6:4, 20; Titus. 1:10; 3:9; 2 Tim. 2:14, 16,23),

Aren't these guys on TV?

Post by **_Jesusfollower** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:01 pm

Yep as well as Christian church buildings non Christian church buildings, Christian conventions, Christian radio etc., they are everywhere.

Post by **_livingink** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:24 pm

Hi Les,

I might also suggest that you listen to Steve's series of audio recordings titled Some Assembly Required if you haven't already done so. As I remember, the last couple deal specifically with scripture concerning women and I found it quite instructive. As you probably already know, this issue can cause division in a fellowship quickly if it is not handled by a very mature teacher. I urge you to educate yourself thoroughly and then consider becoming a resource that your congregation can turn to when answering some very difficult questions that can become emotionally charged in a very short time. Prepare your shield and helmet!

sincerely,

livingink

Post by **_Jesusfollower** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:17 pm

Any women interested in the liberation that our Lord Jesus intended.

10 Lies the Church Tells Women:
How the Bible has been misused to keep women in spiritual bondage
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules ... le&sid=681

Post by **_Les Wright** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 9:54 pm

Hi Jesusfollower,

I am interested in knowing and obeying scripture. At this point I'm also very interested in what Steve has to say on the subject...

Tx
Les

Post by **_Rae** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:04 pm

I just wanted to bring this thread back up to the top. Especially since the topic of women in leadership has come up again on the board.

Steve had said that he would answer some of Les' questions, and I guess the thread just got lost among all of the other threads at this popular forum.

This has always been an interesting topic to me... because I enjoy trying to figure things out, not because I in any way want to be a "pastor". Seriously -- with two kids and another on the way and managing the house and homeschooling?? When would I ever have time to manage the affairs of the church? So, any leaning towards the "1 Tim 2 isn't saying what we think it's saying" view that I have, in no way means that I think women should be in leadership among men. Just that I don't necessarily know if these are the verses to use to prove it.

Anyway, after I read that article a year(?) ago I went to Barnes and Noble and found a modern, secular Gnostic book where the guy talks about the history of Gnosticism and what they believe. I figured that if what the author of the article posted claimed was true about the beliefs that 1 Tim 2 supposedly addresses originating in Gnosticism, then it would be easily verified in a Gnostic book. From what I saw, everything that the author of the article said that the Gnostics believed, I found substantiated in the book that I found (again, a completely secular book -- no one trying to prove anything). I wish I had bought the book so that I would have something to quote from.

I would really like to hear any further comments/insights/research on this matter.

And if Steve has time between his teachings/family/trip to Africa to respond with what he was planning on responding with, I'd love to read that as well.

Post by **_Michelle** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:07 am

Hey Rae,

Congrats on number three on the way!