Heb 8:7-13

[Guest]

God is long suffering and patient but not eternally

Lam 3:22-24
22 The steadfast love of the LORD never ceases;
his mercies never come to an end;
23 they are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.
24 "The LORD is my portion," says my soul,
"therefore I will hope in him."

Todd

But couldn't I also quote:
Isa 57:21 There is no peace," says my God, for the wicked.

It just seems so arbitrary I guess. I guess my hang-up is that since it isn't explicitly taught that all will eventually be saved, then why believe it. Deduction would seem to be the answer we could both give.

I see the reconcilement of all things not to be all getting saved, but all things being reconciled. Once reconciled to Christ, He can still condemn people. Actaully, that is the very thing said to happen. After the dead are raised there is a judgement, but if this is a time after sinful flesh has been delt with, then why judge then? It seems like after the resurrection, those who were evil will then repent. If it's the flesh that makes one bad, then that could be taken care of at the resurrection.

I instead see the reconcilement of all things as God's reclaiming of all things, just becaise eveything is reclaimed doesn't mean it's all good. If you have all you own lost and then found again, it doesn't mean that you treat everything equally. The wicked have some freedom now to do as they please, after the judgement they are reclaimed and punished. For how long? My main point is that the bible as far as I know doesn't tell us how long, or that there is an end to the punishment. Personally, it seems like a bad call to me to let prisoners go after they repent when that is the only option they have, meaning, they have no other choice. Again, that's what this life is for, to see what you do with your free choices. If in your entire life you never accept the free forgivness of Christ then how can you be saved later? If in the judgement you are tormented until you repent, then you never really repented, IMO. It's like catching a spy, you torture them to get them to do something they don't want to do (talk). If this is how God get's people to repent, then it isn't repentance.

While we see this differently, do you at least see the logic I'm trying to use? It's like the universe is a big shoebox God has us in, on the day of judgement it's like God opends the lid and says "Here I am!" and the evil people say "Oh no! Were sorry!" That's just not true. They just met the end of their freedom and are saying that to contine on what they have done their entire lives, get what they want. When only two choices are left:repentance & torment, there really are no choices. The wicked are selfish, and will almost always chose the most comfortable option. Like the demons, they shudder at the name of Christ, but they still do evil. They don't change, and they are not "in the flesh".

[Guest]

If in your entire life you never accept the free forgivness of Christ then how can you be saved later? If in the judgement you are tormented until you repent, then you never really repented, IMO. It's like catching a spy, you torture them to get them to do something they don't want to do (talk). If this is how God get's people to repent, then it isn't repentance.


And if you never heard of Christ which is the case of many over history? Or as in my case and the case of most people on this earth , if you have no real understanding of who Christ was and that he was even resurrected? It's not as if it's an equal playing field in this life ,the circumstances are so vastly different for people. Sure if you're born into a bible believing Christian family and you reject Christ that's one thing but what about muslims or hindus or buddaists or native americans or jews or kids with angry atheist parents ,are these people just destined for eternal hell?
Consider the fact that until the 1600s there were virtually no bibles and even into the 1800s the vast majority of people were illiterate so whether you made Christ your Lord was more dependent was more or less a lottery of who was in your life.
If there is justice this life can not be the last opportunity.
BTW i think that repentence includes paying for your sins in some way since scripture says as we sin "we are storing up the wrath of God."

[mgarrett]

God is long suffering and patient but not eternally

Lam 3:22-24
22 The steadfast love of the LORD never ceases;
his mercies never come to an end;
23 they are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.
24 "The LORD is my portion," says my soul,
"therefore I will hope in him."

Todd

But couldn't I also quote:
Isa 57:21 There is no peace," says my God, for the wicked.

It just seems so arbitrary I guess. I guess my hang-up is that since it isn't explicitly taught that all will eventually be saved, then why believe it. Deduction would seem to be the answer we could both give.

I see the reconcilement of all things not to be all getting saved, but all things being reconciled. Once reconciled to Christ, He can still condemn people. Actaully, that is the very thing said to happen. After the dead are raised there is a judgement, but if this is a time after sinful flesh has been delt with, then why judge then? It seems like after the resurrection, those who were evil will then repent. If it's the flesh that makes one bad, then that could be taken care of at the resurrection.

I instead see the reconcilement of all things as God's reclaiming of all things, just becaise eveything is reclaimed doesn't mean it's all good. If you have all you own lost and then found again, it doesn't mean that you treat everything equally. The wicked have some freedom now to do as they please, after the judgement they are reclaimed and punished. For how long? My main point is that the bible as far as I know doesn't tell us how long, or that there is an end to the punishment. Personally, it seems like a bad call to me to let prisoners go after they repent when that is the only option they have, meaning, they have no other choice. Again, that's what this life is for, to see what you do with your free choices. If in your entire life you never accept the free forgivness of Christ then how can you be saved later? If in the judgement you are tormented until you repent, then you never really repented, IMO. It's like catching a spy, you torture them to get them to do something they don't want to do (talk). If this is how God get's people to repent, then it isn't repentance.

While we see this differently, do you at least see the logic I'm trying to use? It's like the universe is a big shoebox God has us in, on the day of judgement it's like God opends the lid and says "Here I am!" and the evil people say "Oh no! Were sorry!" That's just not true. They just met the end of their freedom and are saying that to contine on what they have done their entire lives, get what they want. When only two choices are left:repentance & torment, there really are no choices. The wicked are selfish, and will almost always chose the most comfortable option. Like the demons, they shudder at the name of Christ, but they still do evil. They don't change, and they are not "in the flesh".

Sean,

I would have to agree with you if, indeed, the wicked are just given the choice between torture or bliss. It can't be that way or it wouldn't make any sense. But I don't see it that way. Somehow there must be a true change of heart - not by force or coercion - but by a true understanding of the sinful ways one has enacted. Perhaps, once we are free of the flesh, this can happen. It must be something about the refiner's fire that we cannot grasp in this life. But it is my sincere hope that our Lord not only has the desire to save everyone, but has somehow made it possible through His great mercy and love.

I have mentioned this before in another post several months ago. I think it is entirely possible that the "great multitude" in Rev 7 is referring to those who have been delivered from hell (great tribulation) and made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb. The 144 thousand who have been sealed (by the Holy Spirit) are the church.

It just seems to me that of the three possibilities: (1) never-ending torture, (2) annihilation, and (3) some form of universal salvation - the first two just don't make sense to me even though you can find scriptural support for them. I appreciate everyone's contribution to this topic on all sides. I will continue to study.

Todd

[Guest]

It just seems to me that of the three possibilities: (1) never-ending torture, (2) annihilation, and (3) some form of universal salvation - the first two just don't make sense to me even though you can find scriptural support for them. I appreciate everyone's contribution to this topic on all sides. I will continue to study.

I respectfully disagree with your assessment that "eternal torture" has scriptural support Todd. As Paidion has confirmed something i already knew which is "eternal" is simply a mistranslation used from the dark ages to terrify people to avoid eternal hell. I think annahilation is possible if the word "all" is not literal but hyperbole.

[Guest]

Sean,

I would have to agree with you if, indeed, the wicked are just given the choice between torture or bliss. It can't be that way or it wouldn't make any sense. But I don't see it that way. Somehow there must be a true change of heart - not by force or coercion - but by a true understanding of the sinful ways one has enacted. Perhaps, once we are free of the flesh, this can happen. It must be something about the refiner's fire that we cannot grasp in this life. But it is my sincere hope that our Lord not only has the desire to save everyone, but has somehow made it possible through His great mercy and love.

I have mentioned this before in another post several months ago. I think it is entirely possible that the "great multitude" in Rev 7 is referring to those who have been delivered from hell (great tribulation) and made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb. The 144 thousand who have been sealed (by the Holy Spirit) are the church.

It just seems to me that of the three possibilities: (1) never-ending torture, (2) annihilation, and (3) some form of universal salvation - the first two just don't make sense to me even though you can find scriptural support for them. I appreciate everyone's contribution to this topic on all sides. I will continue to study.

Todd

While you can read torture in there, I read torment. While we could see them as the same thing, I see torment as existence without God. Maybe not too unlike many today who suffer from depression. You can't cheer them up, they are in endless torment. Yet they are not being tortured.

Most translations do use the word torturers here, but I actually want to make a different point from this passage:

Matt 18:32 "Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?' 34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

Interestingly, it says that anyone who does not forgive his brother will have there sin debt re-instated until they pay it off. The question is, can we atone for our sin? Is this saying we can pay it off like Christ paid for sins, but it will just take time, or is it a way of saying that it's an impossible debt to pay off, so forgive others who have much less debt.

You can take it either way, but it is difficult to see us paying off our sin debt in this way. It would make us the author of our salvation and something we can boast about, eventually paying off the debt ourselves apart from God's reinstitution of it.

Unless this is not talking about our payment of sin. Just some rambling thoughts of mine.

[Guest]

Hi Todd,
You made a statement to Sean somewhere on the first page of this discussion at which time you asked:

I do agree with you that annihilation makes more sense than never-ending torture, but why resurrect the unjust just to destroy them again. That makes no sense either to me. As Paul said, "he that is dead is freed from sin" (Rom 6:7). And how can death truely be destroyed if many are annihilated?

This May be way out there in left field, but I am reminded of the passage from 1 Peter 3 which says:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

Could this all simply be a part of the act of justice where not only does God declare His right as Judge but it must be made known to all that He in fact is God and that through Christ Jesus all judgement is determined.

It seems to me that Jesus did a sort of "rubbing your face in it" so to speak in order to establish all and complete all. By doing this, proving that all are without excuse.

What do you all think?

[mgarrett]

You can take it either way, but it is difficult to see us paying off our sin debt in this way. It would make us the author of our salvation and something we can boast about, eventually paying off the debt ourselves apart from God's reinstitution of it.

Sean,

I don't see it as "paying off the debt ourselves." Jesus paid the debt for the whole world. This is the key point - it is already a done deal. That is why it is truly grace and not by works, because it applies to everyone. Those who then follow him in faith receive the inheritance and eternal life. Those who don't must (they have no choice) suffer the tribulation and anguish of the lake of fire.

Think of Paul (actually, Saul) who went from persecuter to preacher through an encounter with Jesus. All it took was seeing Jesus face-to-face. The scripture says, ....

Rev 1:7
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

Is it not possible that this encounter can change the heart? Is it too late then? I think that much of the anguish associated with the lake of fire is the great feeling of shame for one's own life in sin apart from Christ.

Could it be that the lake of fire is referring to something like this?

Prov 25:21-22
21 If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
22 For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.

Is 45:23-24
23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.
24 They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone
are righteousness and strength.' "
All who have raged against him
will come to him and be put to shame.

"God has put all things under his feet" because Christ has reconciled the world unto himself. "But yet, we see not yet all things under him," because not all follow him in faith. "But when all things are subdued unto him," through the refining of the lake of fire, "then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." [My words are in black]

Just some thoughts.

Todd

[mgarrett]

Hi Todd,
You made a statement to Sean somewhere on the first page of this discussion at which time you asked:

I do agree with you that annihilation makes more sense than never-ending torture, but why resurrect the unjust just to destroy them again. That makes no sense either to me. As Paul said, "he that is dead is freed from sin" (Rom 6:7). And how can death truely be destroyed if many are annihilated?

This May be way out there in left field, but I am reminded of the passage from 1 Peter 3 which says:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

Could this all simply be a part of the act of justice where not only does God declare His right as Judge but it must be made known to all that He in fact is God and that through Christ Jesus all judgement is determined.

It seems to me that Jesus did a sort of "rubbing your face in it" so to speak in order to establish all and complete all. By doing this, proving that all are without excuse.

What do you all think?

Allyn,

I suppose that is possible, but I have always looked at that verse as Christ delivering the Good News to those who had died that their redeemer had come. The verse gives so little detail it is difficult to determine the purpose.

Todd

[Guest]

Sean wrote:

Is this saying we can pay it off like Christ paid for sins, but it will just take time, or is it a way of saying that it's an impossible debt to pay off, so forgive others who have much less debt.

You can take it either way, but it is difficult to see us paying off our sin debt in this way.

I believe the point Jesus made is that there is no way no how the debt will ever be paid or the debtor will ever get out of prison. The sum Jesus pictured in the parable, 10,000 talents, was "a debt beyond conception.... 100 million dinars" (Joachim Jeremias, The Parables of Jesus). Thrown into prison, the only thing the debtor could do would be to sell his family into slavery. Slaves were valued at an average of 500 to 2000 dinars; the amount realized from their sale could bear no relation whatever to the monstrous debt. Jeremias states: "Hence the King's order in v.25 must be understood in the main as an expression of his wrath." Regarding the words in v.34 "until he should pay all that was due to him", Jeremias states "...in view of the magnitude of the debt, can only mean that the punishment would be endless.

The parable is an obvious warning about the last judgement and the permanence of the state of the condemned. Universalists, how do you explain the parable?

[mgarrett]

Sean wrote:

Is this saying we can pay it off like Christ paid for sins, but it will just take time, or is it a way of saying that it's an impossible debt to pay off, so forgive others who have much less debt.

You can take it either way, but it is difficult to see us paying off our sin debt in this way.

I believe the point Jesus made is that there is no way no how the debt will ever be paid or the debtor will ever get out of prison. The sum Jesus pictured in the parable, 10,000 talents, was "a debt beyond conception.... 100 million dinars" (Joachim Jeremias, The Parables of Jesus). Thrown into prison, the only thing the debtor could do would be to sell his family into slavery. Slaves were valued at an average of 500 to 2000 dinars; the amount realized from their sale could bear no relation whatever to the monstrous debt. Jeremias states: "Hence the King's order in v.25 must be understood in the main as an expression of his wrath." Regarding the words in v.34 "until he should pay all that was due to him", Jeremias states "...in view of the magnitude of the debt, can only mean that the punishment would be endless.

The parable is an obvious warning about the last judgement and the permanence of the state of the condemned. Universalists, how do you explain the parable?

Homer,

The debt cannot be paid by the sinner - only through the atonement that comes through Christ's death.

Now, I ask you a question. What is the purpose of endless punishment?

Todd