The resurrection - 1 Cor 15

[Guest]

Paidion,

Could you please tell me what version of the word you are using. I have read seven different english versions and have read nothing that uses the words that you are quoting?

Roger

[mgarrett]

You both seem to believe that the refining process will take a very long time (ages and ages). Isn't just possible that it could happen in a "twinkling of an eye?"

Scripturally, I don't think it is possible.

For example:

Matthew 25:46 And they [the "goats"] will go away into correction that goes from age to age, but the righteous into life that goes from age to age."

Yes, the word is "correction". It comes from a Greek word that was used in reference to pruning trees.

The Greek word "aiOnios" cannot mean "eternal". How could there be "eternal correction". For no one would ever be corrected.

On the other hand, how could this "correction" be instaneous? It is a process that takes time.

Perhaps. But maybe the age that Jesus refers to is this age.

Todd

[Guest]

Matthew 25:46 And they [the "goats"] will go away into correction that goes from age to age, but the righteous into life that goes from age to age

Paidion, I have Rotherham's and it says "And these shall go away into age abiding correction" Matt 25.46
Is age abiding the same as age to age?

[mgarrett]

Hi Father of Five,
I hope universalism is true, for it would be a great joy to know that my family and loved ones will one day be united in the eternal kingdom of heaven. The only problem is, what about the unforgivable sin, and the age to come. If you will, check out this link, (if you haven't already) and tell me what you think.

http://www.carm.org/uni/blasphemyage.htm

Thanks Father of Five
Tre

Tre,

The unforgivable sin would be dealt with the same as any other sin for those who are not in Christ at their death. John 3:16 says that these people will perish and, as Paidion has pointed out, will go into "age-abiding correction," which I believe occurs in this age. When Jesus returns he will convince those who are ungodly of all their ungodly deeds (Jude 1:15) and they will be ashamed (Ps 25:3, 31:17, Is 45:23-24) so that, in the resurrection (the age to come) they can find mercy from the Father of mercies, and be reconciled to him by the blood of the Lamb.

Rom 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Todd

[Guest]

Mark 3:29 "but he who blashpemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation" (NKJV)

"eternal sin" (NIV)

"eternal sin" (NAS)

"everlasting trespass" (Amplified Bible)

"eternal sin" (New Living translation)

"eternal sin" (English Standard Version)

"This sin will be held against you forever" (Contemporary English Version)

"eternal damnation" (21st Century KJV)

"eternal sin" (ASV)

"everlasting sin" (Darby)

"sin that lasts forever" (New Life Version)

"eternal sin" (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

"His guilt will last forever" (New International Reader's Version)

"everlasting trespass" (Wycliffe New Testiment)

"eternal sin" (NIV UK)

"but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness--to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgement."
(Youngs's Literal Translation)

Out of 16 english translations only one seems to agree with what you are trying to say here. All the other translators are wrong?

[Guest]

Steve7150,

I understand what you are saying, but your assumptions are based on the premise that Revelation is written chronologically, which I don't believe that it is. Scriptures such as Rev 22:17 that you quote apply today. Even the verses in the latter part of Rev 20 I don't think are necessarily written in chronological order. But, of course, you could be right. I certainly don't mean to imply that I have all the answers; rather, I am just trying to understand and make everything fit as best I can. Thanks for your input.
Todd, I understand much of Rev is not chronological but it seems to me the consumation of this age is. After all New Jerusalem is going to come down unto earth or do you see that in a spiritual fulfillment?

[mgarrett]

Out of 16 english translations only one seems to agree with what you are trying to say here. All the other translators are wrong?

Roger,

No, they are not wrong. I just think that our understanding of the world "eternal" may be incorrect. From what I have understood, the Greek word literally means "enduring throughout the age." So, when the age is over, then what? Then, perhaps, we have a new age where different circumstances may apply. There must be some point where the following scriptures will come to pass.

Phil 2:9-11
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Rev 5:13
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!"

And besides, maybe it is not so much a matter of forgiveness as it is a matter of the boundless mercy of God. As the scripture says, "God is Love" (1 John 4:8 ).

Todd

[mgarrett]

Todd, I understand much of Rev is not chronological but it seems to me the consumation of this age is. After all New Jerusalem is going to come down unto earth or do you see that in a spiritual fulfillment?

Steve7150,

I don't think that Rev Chapters 20-22 were necessarily written as a series of chronological events. For example, Rev 21:9-27, could easily be describing the heavenly Jerusalem as it is today which is also described in Heb 12:22-24.

And also, as another example, Rev 22:17 definitely applies today.

Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Todd

[Guest]

Matthew 25:46 And they [the "goats"] will go away into correction that goes from age to age, but the righteous into life that goes from age to age.

Roger, the verse as quoted above is my own translation. I inserted the phrase [the "goats"] just so that it would be clear to whom "they" referred.
Since I have no reputation as a translator, many may regard this translation as worthless. However, I have studied Greek for many years, and have tried to be faithful in translation.


Steve7150, thank you for quoting Rotherham. I wasn't aware that he translated "kolasis" as "correction". That, indeed, is the meaning. But I think the Rotherham translation is the only one that so translates it. I don't think "age-abiding" is quite the same as "going from age to age".
I have read some who say the meaning is "age-lasting" which is a more modern way of saying "age-abiding". Rev 15:7 states that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tested in the lake of fire for "ages of ages". So they will not be there for only a single age (which "age-abiding" might suggest) but will be for "ages of ages". If an "age" were 1000 years, then "an age of ages" would be 1,000,000 years. Thus "ages of ages" would be several million years. It appears that the correction will take place over a very long period of time. I wouldn't want to be corrected in the lake of fire for 5 minutes, let alone, millions of years! But it is necessary for the majority of people. God will do His best for every person. He knows that in view of their rebellion, nothing else would move them to repentance. Some of you may say that pain alone will not cause anyone to repent. That may be true. But it may be that God will have a mission for His resurrected saints, the manifest sons of God, the overcomers. They may be sent on missions to Gehenna to proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom! (Please indulge me in this bit of speculation).

Roger,
I can confidently affirm that the 15 translations of Mark 3:29 which you quoted are indeed wrong! A word is not necessarily translated correctly just because a vast majority of translations so reder it. A statement is not necessarily true because 99.9% of people believe it.

The word "aiōnios" is the adjectival form of the noun "aiōn". And "aiōn" means "age". There is a Greek word for "eternal". It is "aidios", and is found in the verse that refers to "His eternal power and deity." If Mark had understood Jesus as meaning an "eternal sin", why did he choose the adjective "aiōnios" instead of "aidios" when he wrote this account of Jesus' words?

Here are a couple of other translations that do not translate "aiōnios" in this verse as "eternal."

Rotherham translated it as "age-abiding sin" and Weymouth translated it as "sin of the Ages".

[Guest]

Thank you for the clarification Paidion.

Roger