I guess I agree with you about not debating this topic, Rick.
Never mind, Allyn.
TK
The Spiritual Gift of Prophecy (and, perhaps, others)
Well, I'm still for a bit of sharing ---- not necessarily debating ---- but if it leads to that ....TK wrote:Allyn-
what is the "Perfect" you are referring to?
TK, I am quite familiar with an argument which "explains" why the spiritual gifts are not in operation, and I think it is the one to which Allyn is alluding.
The argument goes like this. Using the following verses from I Cor 13 out of context ...
8 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect;
10 but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.
It is argued that the gifts of the spirit: the gift of prophecy, the gift of tongues, and the gift of knowledge will pass away. Well... for a little bit of context, Paul said these gifts were imperfect, and childish. But when the perfect comes they will be over and done with. What is the perfect, you ask? That is the completed canon of Scripture, which we now possess. Now that the word of God is perfected or completed, the spiritual gifts are no longer necessary to reveal God's truth through prophecy, tongues, or knowledge, so they simply passed away when the final New Testament writing was added to the complete canon.
The chief problem with this explanation of the quoted verses is that Paul's topic in I Corinthians 13 is not Scripture or a completed canon, but rather the topic is LOVE all the way through.
The verses just prior to the passage is all about LOVE:
4 Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful;
5 it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
6 it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.
7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Then comes the passage in question, and then:
11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
After meditating on verse 12, the meaning becomes clear:
LOVE ---- is that which is perfect. But the people of God do not yet have perfect love. Now, when our love is still partial, we must rely on the gift of prophecy, the gift of tongues, and the gift of knowledge in order to know people. Often God gives a word through prophecy for someone, but He doesn't reveal everything about that person. I, myself, received a personal prophecy through an elder. Things were said about me that this elder (from another area) didn't know about me. But not everything was revealed. The same with tongues. The same with the gift of knowledge. God may reveal knowledge about an individual to someone. But He doesn't reveal everything about the individual to the person with the gift of knowledge.
So now, with the execise of spiritual gifts, we know people partially. But when perfect LOVE comes to the Body of Christ, we shall know everyone fully, even as we are known fully by God.
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Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
I've always thought this referred to us knowing God (in the next age) as he knows us now. I guess we would then know each other fully as well.
Paidion, when do you think that perfect love will come to the body of Christ? In this age or the next?
I've always thought this referred to us knowing God (in the next age) as he knows us now. I guess we would then know each other fully as well.
Paidion, when do you think that perfect love will come to the body of Christ? In this age or the next?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Sue
Avatar: with my grandson
Avatar: with my grandson
I don't know. I hope it's in this age. It would be glorious to see perfect love operating in the Body of Christ! It is written that He who began a good work will bring it to perfection at the day of Jesus Christ. Yet, it seems to me that that work of God within us must be a work in progess right now. So I pray that God's love within us may develop in a powerful way, so that we may know each other better. Then our love will increase even more!Paidion, when do you think that perfect love will come to the body of Christ? In this age or the next?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Paidion,
Nice picture; you were a handsome young man, the age I was when I got married, and we still are!
The subject passage is a difficult one, but this part seems to be simpler than the way it is often taken:
12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.
"Face to face" is often taken as a reference to seeing Jesus when He returns but Paul's analogy appears to be that of looking at yourself in a polished metal mirror of his time (dimly) compared to seeing a person face to face (clearly). There is no textual reason to take his meaning in another sense.
You wrote:
Although Paul may not have had in mind a "completed canon", i.e. all the writings or scriptures put together in one book, I certainly think he would have anticipated a completion of revelation.
The part I have heard no convincing argument from charismatics on is this:
13. So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
The passage is claimed to be about a time after Jesus' return. What role will faith play then, we will be living by sight? And especially, what need will we have for the virtue of hope? What will be be lacking or feel deprived of?
Romans 8:24 (New King James Version)
24. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
It seems to me that the time period Paul is referring to is during this present age.
Nice picture; you were a handsome young man, the age I was when I got married, and we still are!
The subject passage is a difficult one, but this part seems to be simpler than the way it is often taken:
12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.
"Face to face" is often taken as a reference to seeing Jesus when He returns but Paul's analogy appears to be that of looking at yourself in a polished metal mirror of his time (dimly) compared to seeing a person face to face (clearly). There is no textual reason to take his meaning in another sense.
You wrote:
I understand "the perfect" somewhat differently, as the completion of God's final message to man, "the gospel once for all delivered to the saints". Its done, there isn't any more, no matter what Joseph Smith said.It is argued that the gifts of the spirit: the gift of prophecy, the gift of tongues, and the gift of knowledge will pass away. Well... for a little bit of context, Paul said these gifts were imperfect, and childish. But when the perfect comes they will be over and done with. What is the perfect, you ask? That is the completed canon of Scripture, which we now possess.
Although Paul may not have had in mind a "completed canon", i.e. all the writings or scriptures put together in one book, I certainly think he would have anticipated a completion of revelation.
The part I have heard no convincing argument from charismatics on is this:
13. So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
The passage is claimed to be about a time after Jesus' return. What role will faith play then, we will be living by sight? And especially, what need will we have for the virtue of hope? What will be be lacking or feel deprived of?
Romans 8:24 (New King James Version)
24. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
It seems to me that the time period Paul is referring to is during this present age.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean