1 Timothy 4:10

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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:09 am

Hi Rick,

You said:
From 1 Timothy Chapter Four, demonstrate that Paul taught God will save unbelievers after they die.
Paul's theology seems to be that Christ has already saved everyone. That unbelievers in this life will experience that salvation after they die is the obvious and logical conclusion to draw.
This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
If we're only going to focus on the text of 1 Timothy 4:9-10, then it seems that the use of the word "especially" (malista in the Greek) is of paramount importance.

Malista means most of all; in the greatest degree; more of the same. Paul uses the word again in 2 Timothy 4:13 when he writes, "When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, especially the parchments." The parchments were a subset of the scrolls. Paul wants the scrolls and most of all the parchments. This is consistent with how malista is used everywhere else in the NT (Acts 20:38; 25:26; 26:3; Gal 6:10; Phil 4:22; 1 Tim 5:8, 17; Titus 1:10; Philemon 16 and 2 Peter 2:10).

Notice how malista is used in Acts 25:26 (beginning at v. 23):
The next day Agrippa and Bernice came with great pomp and entered the audience room with the high ranking officers and the leading men of the city. At the command of Festus, Paul was brought in. Festus said: "King Agrippa, and all who are present with us, you see this man! The whole Jewish community has petitioned me about him in Jerusalem and here in Caesarea, shouting that he ought not to live any longer. I found he had done nothing deserving of death, but because he made his appeal to the Emperor I decided to send him to Rome. But I have nothing definite to write to His Majesty about him. Therefore I have brought him before all of you, and especially [malista] before you, King Agrippa, so that as a result of this investigation I may have something to write. For I think it is unreasonable to send on a prisoner without specifying the charges against him."


Paul is brought before the entire audience, but most of all Agrippa. Paul is not brought before Agrippa and potentially before the rest of the audience. Agrippa is among the audience, but is of special note.

To claim that Paul's use of malista in 1 Timothy 4:10 means something other than how he uses it elsewhere in the same letter, how he uses it in other letters, and how it is used in the rest of the New Testament, is to strain credibility. The onus is on you to show that you are not eisegeting this verse by applying an inconsistent meaning to malista.


If this singular verse were the only inkling of Paul's universalism, it might be one thing, but we find the following statement in the same letter (Chapter 2, verses 1-7):
I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.


Paul makes it clear that he believes that:

a) God wants all men to be saved.
b) Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all men.

The clear implication is that if all men are not saved, then:

a) God doesn't get what He wants.
b) Jesus' sacrifice fell short.


If we only found such apparently universalist statements in one Epistle, it might be one thing, but we find similar statements throughout the Pauline corpus. In fact, what we find is a consistent pattern of universalist statements in Paul's epistles (the obvious ones being Rom 3:23-24; Rom 5:6-18; Rom 8:38-39; Rom 11:32; Col 1:15-20; 1 Cor 13:4-8; 1 Cor 15:22; 2 Cor 5:14; Eph 1:9-10; Phil 2:10-11; Titus 2:11).

Dr. Thomas Talbott wrote:
I have been unable to find a single example, drawn from Paul's theological writings in which Paul makes a universal statement and the scope of its reference is unduly fuzzy or less than clear. Paul's writing may be cumbersome at times, but he was not nearly as sloppy a writer (or a thinker) as some of his commentators, in their zeal to interpret him for us, would make him out to be. (The Inescapable Love of God)


If we only found such universalist statements by Paul, it might be one thing, but we find similar statement made throughout the New Testament by Luke (3:6, 19:10); John (John 1:9, 1:29, 3:17, 4:42, 12:32, 12:47; 1 John 2:2; Rev 5:13); Peter (2 Pet 3:9) and the writer of Hebrews (2:9, 9:12).

If we only found such universalist statements in the New Testament, it might be one thing, but we also see hints of it in places like Genesis, Job, the Psalms, Isaiah and Joel.


I've already mentioned on other posts how the earliest Christian theologians (the ones who spoke Greek) like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, etc., believed in universal reconciliation. My point in bringing it up again is to stress that this is not some new-fangled, post-modern, romanticist, liberal teaching. It seems to me that the shift from a reconcilation-based theology to a Hell-based theology occurred with Augustine, 350 or so years after Christ. But even after Augustine, there have been learned theologians who have held to -- or at least held open the possibility of -- salvation for all. I was surprised recently to come across the following quote:
“God forbid that I should limit the time for acquiring faith to the present life. In the depths of the Divine Mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future state.” Martin Luther (Letter to Hansen von Rechenberg, 1522)
Maybe someone more familiar with Luther's works can verify its authenticity?
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Post by __id_1679 » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:32 am

Danny,

Quote: "I've already mentioned on other posts how the earliest Christian theologians (the ones who spoke Greek) like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, etc., believed in universal reconciliation".

So what! Does that mean they were right in their theology? If you are going to point out early church fathers belief as a means of justifying your faith in Cu, how can you be objective of Augustine's view, or Calvins, Wesley and others who believed and reasoned from the scriptures, that eternal seperation from God is the biblical teaching?

This is what I mean about our presuppositions. You come to the issue with a pretext. "God is all loving. God desires to save all people. If all people are not saved, then God is defeated. Therefore, for God to seperate all wickedness and evil from the world to come either by quarantine, or annihilation, He would be unjust to do so". Now you have to find a "context" for your "pretext"... or cite this or that author who holds the same twisted view, only he knows the 'greek' better than you, and can make his points better than you and sound more convincing in the process!

Has it ever occured to any of you who hold a CU position, that the most loving thing God will do for those of us who will inherit Life, is to simply annihilate all evil?

The bible speaks of two resurrections.

Daniel 12 "...everyone who's name has been found written in the book, will be rescued' And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will
awake,these to everlasting life, BUT THE OTHERS TO DISGRACE AND EVERLASTING CONTEMPT
"

Revelation 20:14-15..." And death and Hades (Sheol) were thrown into the LAKE OF FIRE. This is the second death. And IF ANYONES NAME WAS NOT FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, HE WAS THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".

This I think ends the story for the wicked. There is no indication either implied or stated directly that I know of, where these people are provided
"an exit". Could it mean that there is "NO EXIT" ?
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:56 am

Revelation 20:14-15..." And death and Hades (Sheol) were thrown into the LAKE OF FIRE. This is the second death. And IF ANYONES NAME WAS NOT FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, HE WAS THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".

This I think ends the story for the wicked. There is no indication either implied or stated directly that I know of, where these people are provided
"an exit". Could it mean that there is "NO EXIT" ?



Bob, It could, since the lake of fire is "the second death" and Paul said death is the last enemy to be destroyed.
But the words used for the judgement of the unsaved are either "krisis" or "krinos" and neither means automatic conviction , they both allow for an evaluation and for proportional punishment and there is nothing in the bible pinpointing death as the final opportunity for salvation.
While Jesus preached and then Paul there were millions of people in China,Asia,the Americas,Europe,Africa and i'm wondering Bob, what happens to these people? Were they in the wrong place at the wrong time, to bad?
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Post by __id_1679 » Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:06 pm

Hello Steve7150,

Quote: "While Jesus preached and then Paul there were millions of people in China,Asia,the Americas,Europe,Africa and i'm wondering Bob, what happens to these people? Were they in the wrong place at the wrong time, to bad?"

The issue is simply not disclosed. So why should we be concerned? Our God is an impartial Judge. He alone can take each person case by case and make a righteous decision based upon His own Righteous Standard.
I believe He will Judge man based upon the "light" they have been given,
rather than on an ignorance of the Gospel they've never heard. I also believe since God is omniscienent, He also knows what people may have chosen under alternate circumstances. The only "universal" in the equation is the fact that all were created in God's Image. Part of that Image is seen in the Moral Laws of all cultures. Therefore as I understand it, this is the "light" by which all will be judged even though they may have not recieved the special revelation of the Gospel. I think Paul in Romans intimated this. See Romans 1:18-32.
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:35 pm

Quote: "I've already mentioned on other posts how the earliest Christian theologians (the ones who spoke Greek) like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, etc., believed in universal reconciliation".

So what! Does that mean they were right in their theology? If you are going to point out early church fathers belief as a means of justifying your faith in Cu, how can you be objective of Augustine's view, or Calvins, Wesley and others who believed and reasoned from the scriptures, that eternal seperation from God is the biblical teaching?
I explained the "so what" in the very next sentence: "My point in bringing it up again is to stress that this is not some new-fangled, post-modern, romanticist, liberal teaching."

In other words, I was not attempting to justify my faith with an appeal to early church fathers (although there is something to be said for being aware of what the earliest post-Biblical Christians believed), but was countering statements that Rick has brought forth trying to paint CU as a recent theological development.
This is what I mean about our presuppositions. You come to the issue with a pretext. "God is all loving. God desires to save all people.
I'll confess, I do come to the issue with these two presuppositions. This is because they are clearly and repeatedly stated in the Bible. You do not believe that God is all loving and desires to save all people?
If all people are not saved, then God is defeated.
This is not a presupposition, but a logical conclusion. If God dearly wants something, to the point of sacrificing His only begotten Son, but is unable to obtain it, does that not appear to be a form of defeat? Explain to me how it is a victory.
Therefore, for God to seperate all wickedness and evil from the world to come either by quarantine, or annihilation, He would be unjust to do so".
I don't know where you got that from. Are you quoting someone's post? I believe God will not only seperate all wickedness and evil from the world to come, but He will eradicate it entirely. He will do it by reconciling His enemies, not destroying them or leaving them in torment forever.
Has it ever occured to any of you who hold a CU position, that the most loving thing God will do for those of us who will inherit Life, is to simply annihilate all evil?
Absolutely. He will annihilate all evil. But that's not what you're talking about. When you say "annihilate all evil" you really mean "annihilate all people who are evil".
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:37 pm

The issue is simply not disclosed. So why should we be concerned? Our God is an impartial Judge. He alone can take each person case by case and make a righteous decision based upon His own Righteous Standard.
I believe He will Judge man based upon the "light" they have been given,
rather than on an ignorance of the Gospel they've never heard. I also believe since God is omniscienent, He also knows what people may have chosen under alternate circumstances. The only "universal" in the equation is the fact that all were created in God's Image. Part of that Image is seen in the Moral Laws of all cultures. Therefore as I understand it, this is the "light" by which all will be judged even though they may have not recieved the special revelation of the Gospel. I think Paul in Romans intimated this. See Romans 1:18-32.
So Bob, are you saying that salvation is possible apart from Christ?

Please elaborate.
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Post by _Rick_C » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:28 pm

Greetings,

In reply to what Danny just posted to Bob and in keeping-on-topic:
1 Timothy 4:10 in-context teaches two things:
a. Salvation is presently actualized for all who are believing: Christians have full assurance of salvation.
b. "God is the Saviour of all men" is the message that Christians are called to proclaim. God, the Father, sent His Son...By grace are you saved through faith in Jesus: The Gospel.

No Apostle or NT author ever imagined that salvation is POSSIBLE without faith in Christ. When Christians 'theorize' if God can or does save apart from believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, THEY ARE NOT WISE!
(size & bold, emphasizing biblical worldview; our thoughts are to be based in it).


Danny,
I'm preparing a reply to you from 'your earlier' to me on one of your several points. Other than this, I think we need more threads as too many sub-topics keep coming up on them (like the above). I kept my reply on the topic intentionally....

BBL,
Rick
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Post by _Rick_C » Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:04 pm

Danny,

I'll have a reply on malista (Greek, "especially") later.

For now:
You wrote:Paul's theology seems to be that Christ has already saved everyone. That unbelievers in this life will experience that salvation after they die is the obvious and logical conclusion to draw.
Remember the Already/Not Yet eschatological concept? I'm sure you do. Paul's theology teaches that believers are already...and also not yet saved; with salvation being finally and fully realized at the end of the age; Christ's return and the new universal order.

Neither 1 Timothy 4:10 in-context nor the entire corpus of Paul's NT teaching say a single thing about "unbelievers will experience that salvation after they die."

Your 'obvious and logical conclusion' may be apparent and reasonable to you. But to say it is derived or taken from Paul's thought hasn't been demonstrated at all.
Not in the least....

BBL,
Rick
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Post by __id_1679 » Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:01 pm

Danny,

Quote: "Explain to me how it is a victory".

It should be very obvious to you Danny. He obtains victory for the elect in Christ.
Not all are in Christ. Not all will be in Christ. Some will not share in the world to come and dine with the Lord. "Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of God"...Many are called but few chosen..Narrow is the path that leads to life and few find it...What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul..

Tell me, if all are ultimately going to be saved, how then can one lose his soul? Will God ulitmately find it after burning it for ahwile? BTW, I like "smoked" sole. But I don't think we're talking about fish..are we? :D

Your conclusions to your presuppositions are faulty Danny because you presume God would be unjust in destroying not merely all evil, but the people who are the cause of it as well. If a criminal in our society commits a specific evil, like murder, we do not seperate the man from the act. He is executed just the same. Therefore the evil person within our society is eliminated and can no longer commit evil acts. Evil doesn't exisit in a vacum Danny. I do believe God defeats evil either through His love by grace in Christ for those who do repent, or for those who will not repent, by destroying them. I simply do not know of a single case from scripture you can make that God will give people a second chance to repent after they have lived a lifetime of refusing to do so. The message is always; now is the time of our salvation!!
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:13 pm

Hi Bob,
Quote: "Explain to me how it is a victory".

It should be very obvious to you Danny. He obtains victory for the elect in Christ.
Not all are in Christ. Not all will be in Christ. Some will not share in the world to come and dine with the Lord.
No that's not obvious at all. Are you a Calvinist? I think I've ask you this before, but I'm just trying to get a handle on where you're coming from.

Do you believe that God intends for most to go to Hell (or be annihilated)?
Do you believe that God desires to save all?
Do you believe that God is capable of saving all?
Do you believe that all will not be saved?

Jesus' economy towards sinners seemed to that He would leave the 99 to go after the 1 that was lost. He said, "In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost." The implication was the He wouldn't be happy until all were safe. Are you saying that His economy has changed to the extent that if He can just save 1, it would be OK to lose the 99?

Here is what He says about His intention:

"The Son of Man has come to save that which was lost." (Matt. 18:11)
Or does your Bible say He has come to save some that are lost?!

"In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost." Matt. 18:14
Or does your Bible say your Father is willing that most will be lost?!

"Who then can be saved?...With men it is impossible, but not God; for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:26-27
Or does your Bible say, "With men it is impossible and with God it is only possible if men allow Him."?!

"Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people." Luke 2:10
Or does your Bible say it's good news of great joy for some people?!

"And all mankind will see God's salvation." Luke 3:6 / Isaiah 40:3-5
Or only a fraction of mankind?!

"...the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." Luke 9:56
No, actually, He pretty much came to destroy them?!

"The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world." John 1:9
Or is it only for a few? Or is the light for every, but it's only effective for a few?!

"Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29
That is, the minority who accept Him as Lord and Savior during their lifetime?!

"For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." John 6:33
Only most of the world rejects it, so it didn't work out as planned?!

"But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." John 12:32
But their will is stronger than My draw, so I will only catch a few?!

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world" 1 John 2:2
Or by "whole world" was John exaggerating a wee bit?

And, of course, "It is finished!" John 19:30
Which really meant, "Ok, I did my part, now you have to do your part to complete it."?!

I could go on and on... The amount of verses which clearly state that God's intention was to save all people through Christ is staggering!

"Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of God"...Many are called but few chosen..Narrow is the path that leads to life and few find it...What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul..
Now look who is taking scripture out of context.
Tell me, if all are ultimately going to be saved, how then can one lose his soul? Will God ulitmately find it after burning it for ahwile?
This is a great example of the very type of faulty presupposition that you've accused me of. "Soul" = psuche; breath, life, the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing, soul. You are assuming that since the translators here rendered psuche as soul (for example in Matthew 16:26) they must be speaking of one's immortal spirit. Yet one verse earlier the same word, psuche, is translated as life. Matthew 16:24-26 is a perfect example of the Hebraic parallelisms that run throughout the scriptures. In context, Jesus is speaking of the giving up one's life in the present (for example, by focusing on amassing wealth) in order to receive a reward later. Jesus came that we might have life, and have it more abundantly (John 10:10). To squander our lives seeking only personal fulfillment is truly to miss out on the abundant life that He would give us.

There is no reference to Hell (or annihilation) in these passages. You are reading that into the text.

Jesus makes it quite clear that, in the end, "...he will reward each person according to what he has done." (Matt. 16:27). This speaks to me of justice. "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (Matt. 7:2) He will render to each according to what they deserve; no more, no less. Along the exact same lines, Jesus says elsewhere, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven...." (Matt 19:21)

The idea of reward is counterbalanced by the idea of punishment, but again, in proportion. "Assuredly ... you will by no means get out of there [the place of punishment] until you have paid the last penny." (Matt. 5:26)
Your conclusions to your presuppositions are faulty Danny because you presume God would be unjust in destroying not merely all evil, but the people who are the cause of it as well.
And what would such a presumption be based upon?

"Blessed are the merciful..." Matt. 5:7
"Love your enemies...that you may be sons of the Father." Matt. 5:44
"When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt. 9:36
"Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you." Luke 6:27
"...He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful." Luke 6:35-36

Etc, etc, etc.

I hope you will notice Bob that I have consistently been answering your questions, sometimes at great length. I hope you will do me the same courtesy and answer the questions I have put to you, in this and previous posts.
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