Did the torture of God's beloved Son satisfy Him?

[Guest]

Hey Rick!
I almost missed your question in your post to Paidion!

Quote: "I'd especially like for you to explain how the God of the Bible is different from any other deity on anger (and/or wrath). The wrath of God, imo, is His natural response to sin. In what way can the Holy God not be really inflamed by it"..

IMO, God's expressing His wrath, displays of anger or other words used to convey His 'sore displeasure' have to do with His justice. He always acts
according to His righteousness. Pagan deities on the other hand are usually 'capricious' and will show their 'anger' at the slightest provocation. Not so with Yahweh. He is slow to anger...etc., not wanting anyone to perish but come to repententance..(why I don't identify with Calvinism here).
Pagan deities expressions of wrath are as you say, "all too human"...

Does that "satisfy" you? Are you "appeased" with my answer? javascript:emoticon('8)')

[Guest]

Paidion, et al,

Regarding Paidion's question, the subject of this thread, John Mark Hicks writes:

...... God substituted himself for sinners in Jesus Christ. The cross is not fundamentally a human sacrifice. It is God in the flesh sacrificing himself for humanity. God himself takes upon himself the substitutionary role. This is not a human substitute, but rather one of the triune community represents the Godhead in this act of self-humiliation and offers himself for sinners. The triune community itself experiences the hideousness of sin through the Godforsakenness of the crucified one. The triune community offered its own life, community and fellowship for the sake of reconciliation with the world they loved.

God acts against sin in Jesus Christ. He punishes sin. But he does so within his own life rather than externalizing that punishment by tormenting sinners. God himself experiences the torment of the sin rather than inflicting that torment on us. The Lord of glory cried, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34). The triune community suffered within itself rather than inflicting that suffering upon humanity. The triune community internalized the horror and punishment of sin rather than punishing humanity with eternal wrath. God saved us from the "wrath to come" by experiencing that wrath himself in his own triune life through Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 1:10). This is the love of God that sent his Son into the world as a "propitiation" for sin (1 John 4:10).

The cross is the moment of God's self-substitution. God substitutes himself in such a way that it is just for God to "justify the ungodly" and "not impute sin" to sinners. God substituted himself in that he experienced and internalized within himself the wrath that was due to us. Jesus Christ experienced the curse we deserved, paid the debt we owed, and suffered the eschatological death we earned.

The quote is from Hick's article "Atonement: A Biblical-Theological Perspective", one of the best I have read on the subject. The entire article can be read at:
http://www.johnmarkhicks.faithsite.com/ ... p?CID=7015

Since Paidion rejects "imputed righteousness", I fail to understand how he believes he can ever enter into the presence of a Holy God. He believes (correct me if I am wrong, please Paidion) that God simply forgives us based on our repentance. But yet, as James informs us, "we all stumble in many ways". Since we can not become perfect (we keep on sinning with some regularity), absent imputed righteousness, how do we face God? The only righteousness we would have would be our own, a frightening thought!

Lest one think that we come to a place in our walk where sin is rare, consider the great commandments:

Matthew 22:37-41 (New King James Version)

37. Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38. This is the first and great commandment. 39. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Who among us can say that day by day we live completely in compliance with these commands? And if we fail to completely live according to them at all times, is it not sin, "missing the mark", that Jesus has established for us?

[Guest]

God acts against sin in Jesus Christ. He punishes sin. But he does so within his own life rather than externalizing that punishment by tormenting sinners. God himself experiences the torment of the sin rather than inflicting that torment on us. The Lord of glory cried, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34). The triune community suffered within itself rather than inflicting that suffering upon humanity. The triune community internalized the horror and punishment of sin rather than punishing humanity with eternal wrath. God saved us from the "wrath to come" by experiencing that wrath himself in his own triune life through Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 1:10). This is the love of God that sent his Son into the world as a "propitiation" for sin (1 John 4:10).

The cross is the moment of God's self-substitution. God substitutes himself in such a way that it is just for God to "justify the ungodly" and "not impute sin" to sinners. God substituted himself in that he experienced and internalized within himself the wrath that was due to us. Jesus Christ experienced the curse we deserved, paid the debt we owed, and suffered the eschatological death we earned.


IMO all of the above is true yet there is more to it because simply animal sacrifices were adequate to cover sins prior to Christ so why do we go from animals being sacrificed to God being sacrificed?
IMO because God himself decided it is righteous for He himself to share in the sufferings that we had to go through because Adam and Eve were made spiritually weak and not perfect as is generally believed.
"For the creation was subjected to futility NOT WILLINGLY BUT BECAUSE OF HIM who subjected it in the hope that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of corruption into the glorious freedom of God's children." Rom 8.20

[Guest]

Steve7150,

Hick's article answers many of the issues that have been brought up - highly recommended. You can print it out, email to others, etc.

[Guest]

Homer!

I say "AMEN" to the article you provided. I was "headed" in this general direction in the discussion, pending responses from both Rick and Paidion.
I have noticed in general, a "libereral" view of "Christ Crucified" tends to empty or water down the meaning of the Cross. The idea that God the Father "tortured the Son" frankly, is the most repulsive idea I have ever heard.

Perhaps Paidion will give us his thoughts on Paul's commentary in Romans 5:8-11 NASB

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, having been JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, we shall BE SAVED FROM THE WRATH of GOD THROUGH HIM.
For while we were yet ENEMIES, we were RECONCILED to GOD through the DEATH of HIS SON, much more, having been reconciled, WE SHALL BE SAVED BY HIS LIFE"... I say a hardy Amen!!!!

Thanks Jesus!!! Praise God!!!

[Guest]

Bob,

On a scale of pass or fail: Pass
Rick (out)

[Guest]

Mark 10:45
Christ became a ransom for many.

Definition:
a consideration paid or demanded for the release of someone or something from captivity.

In a third world country such as Philippines thieves or bad guys often will kidnap the kids of the rich people and demand for ransom.

Yes, it is true that Jesus was used by God to become a ransom for us but this does not mean that God owe Satan anything.

It means that Satan kidnapped us and put us into captivity through sins and Satan demanded for a ransom and the ransom that God provided is Jesus Christ.

[Guest]

Paul,

Regarding the idea a ransom was paid to Satan, please see the Hick's article I provided the link to. I think you'll find it very interesting. I would appreciate hearing your comments regarding what he says.
Thanks, Homer

[Guest]

Since Paidion rejects "imputed righteousness", I fail to understand how he believes he can ever enter into the presence of a Holy God. He believes (correct me if I am wrong, please Paidion) that God simply forgives us based on our repentance. But yet, as James informs us, "we all stumble in many ways". Since we can not become perfect (we keep on sinning with some regularity), absent imputed righteousness, how do we face God? The only righteousness we would have would be our own, a frightening thought!

So.... it seems that Homer has not yet gotten beyond the idea that his two options have exhausted the possibilities.

The two options seem to be:

OPTION 1
God's imputed righteousness. God counts us righteous whether we are or not. He is "satisfied" with taking His wrath out on His beloved Son in whom He is well-pleased. In doing so, He does not have the legal
obligation to take it out on us sinners. When God looks at us justified sinners, He no longer sees our sin, but Christ's righteousness. So, covered by the blood, and the robes of CHRIST's righteousness, we are qualified to go to heaven.

OPTION 2
Man's self-effort. We try as hard as we can to please God and obey Christ and His commands. If our good deeds outweigh our bad, God MIGHT let us in to heaven.

Well, I propose (once again) a third option ---the Biblical option.
Christ died to do away with sin. God will not be satisfied until sin is entirely eradicated from the universe. Salvation FROM SIN is a process.
The process may not be completed until the coming of Christ when He puts the fininishing touches on our ongoing salvation from sin. If we are Christ's disciples --- if we have died to the self-life, and are being conformed to the image of Christ, then God, who began a good work in us, will see it to completion in the day of Jesus Christ. Yes, the day will come when the disciples of Christ who make it their aim to please Him, will be complete ---- perfect ---- sin free. Thus the Father justifies us NOW, for He knows what the end of the process entails. THIS is "the blessed hope" of Titus 2:13. [We have been misled by many translations which omit the little word "and" which follows "the blessed hope" so as to make "the appearing of the glory" of the Father and the Son, in apposition to it.] So when we remain in the process of salvation [or sanctification, if you prefer] by the enabling grace of God in this life,
and have become completed by Christ Himself at His coming, we will be truly prepared to spend eternity with the Holy God.

[Guest]

Paidion,

OPTION 1
God's imputed righteousness. God counts us righteous whether we are or not. He is "satisfied" with taking His wrath out on His beloved Son in whom He is well-pleased. In doing so, He does not have the legal
obligation to take it out on us sinners. When God looks at us justified sinners, He no longer sees our sin, but Christ's righteousness. So, covered by the blood, and the robes of CHRIST's righteousness, we are qualified to go to heaven.

Do totally reject this option as you describe it? Consider a sinful person who hears about Jesus as Lord and Savior, and the hope that is in Christ. He repents of his past and is baptized. Yet he is a "babe in Christ", and in his ignorance, continues in some of the sins of his past. He simply does not know yet that some of them are wrong. In this condition, he dies in an accident.

As I understand you, although the man was far from perfect, upon the return of Christ he will be made completely holy/righteous while some very moral unbeliever is condemned. Do you believe the man who is saved is justified because he believed God would give him the strength to improve himself? Is not saving faith based on what Jesus has done, not what we will accomplish with God's help?

If you have ever exegeted Paul's statement in Roman's 4:1-8, I must have missed it.

Romans 4:1-8 (New American Standard Bible)

1. What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
2. For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

3. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

4. Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

5. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

6. just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7. "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8. "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."

What is this statement of Paul if not imputed righteousness based on faith? It seems rather plain and straight-forward to me. What does it mean to you and how do you fit it into your system?

I am well aware of James' statement:

James 2:21-26 (New American Standard Bible)

21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

24. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

25. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

26. For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

I see no conflict at all between Paul and James. Paul informs us we are justified by faith; James concern is what real faith is like. The faith of Abraham in Genesis 15:6 and again in the narrative of James is the exact same faith. I believe Abraham's willingness to sacrifice was an act of faith, perhaps the greatest demonstration of faith in scripture.

There is nothing in scripture that informs us of any deficiency in Abraham's faith from the one incident to the other.