The word [Jesus?] was God

[Guest]

Shalom Derek,

I agree. Frankly, I am not well versed in Greek. Most translators render it "by".

What would it mean for the Father to create "in" Jesus?

Perhaps it means something similar to when Paul says that God chose us "in him before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4)) and when he speaks of the grace that was "given to us before the age" (2 Tim 1:9). Perhaps it means something on the lines of God foreordained Jesus as the man "in whom" all His plans for His creation would be summed up in, thus, all things were created - so to speak - in Christ Jesus.

All things are "out of" the Father (1 Cor 8:6, 2 Cor 5:18). This is never said of the son. Only God the Father is explicitly said to te the ultimate creator of all things. Concering Jesus, we are repeatedly told that all were created through him. The verb "created" is always in the passive - never in the active. This makes sense, because someone else, i.e. the one God, the Father, was doing the creating. But the Father created all things through Jesus and for Jesus, because Jesus is the one in whom al of God's plans for His creation will culminate in.

By "Okay", do you mean that you accept that this verse does not fit your interpretation? I think I have shown that it does not, in my last post.

No I don't mean to accept that! You have insisted that we interpret texts such as these in a strictly literal manner so that they end up teaching that Jesus (or more accurately, the "logos") literally existed in heaven before coming down to Earth. By quoting this passage, I was trying to show that there are grounds on which to not interpret such texts in a strictly literal manner. You have confirmed this in your answer. You chose to interpret the first part metaphorically, the second part literally, and then the third part (if it makes your canon!) metaphorically! You departed from your strict literalism as soon as it didn't support your paradigm - something us premills are often accused of doing .


Here's how I would interpret this text:

"No one has ascended to heaven but...."
When he said that he had ascended into heaven, he was most likely speaking of the future event as though it had already happened - as you agree is common in his sayings. I can't believe that you actually see Jesus a claim to divinity here.

"...he who came down out of heaven..."
Here, I think he is speaking about the source of his mandate and authority. In a sense, he was like every other prophet of God who were sent from God. God is in heaven and thus, in a sense, all the prophets came out of heaven. Likewise, God has sent plenty of angels literally "out of heaven" to Earth.
So what does Jesus by saying that he uniquely had come out of heaven? Well, unlike all prophets and angels, Jesus is the ultimate communication of God's will to man. Whereas the other messengers merely spoke God's words, Jesus is the word of God made flesh. In this sense, he uniquely has descended out from heaven. This is the basically the point that Hebrews 1 is making.

"... the son of man who is in heaven."
Here, I think he was most likely affirming that the source of everything he did was the Father who is in heaven. Yeshua said that he only did the things which the Father was doing and was showing him. This affirmed that he was totally subservient and dependent upon God the Father for everything. he was heavenly minded. He was in a sense "in heaven" while being literally on Earth. We are called to follow this example.

[_Derek]

Ely,

But the Father created all things through Jesus and for Jesus, because Jesus is the one in whom al of God's plans for His creation will culminate in.

Collosians 1:16 says that Jesus created all things, in my opinion, but since the word "en" can also mean "in", it may not be able to be used in this debate. I will have to look up the common use of the word. I don't think the verse makes sense otherwise.

"No one has ascended to heaven but...."
When he said that he had ascended into heaven, he was most likely speaking of the future event as though it had already happened - as you agree is common in his sayings. I can't believe that you actually see Jesus a claim to divinity here.

I gave scripture in which this very same idiom is used. In the preceding verse He speaks of telling Nicodemas of "heavenly things", which was also in the scripture I quoted. I disagree with your interpretation.

"...he who came down out of heaven..."
Here, I think he is speaking about the source of his mandate and authority. In a sense, he was like every other prophet of God who were sent from God. God is in heaven and thus, in a sense, all the prophets came out of heaven. Likewise, God has sent plenty of angels literally "out of heaven" to Earth.
So what does Jesus by saying that he uniquely had come out of heaven? Well, unlike all prophets and angels, Jesus is the ultimate communication of God's will to man. Whereas the other messengers merely spoke God's words, Jesus is the word of God made flesh. In this sense, he uniquely has descended out from heaven. This is the basically the point that Hebrews 1 is making.

Can you show an example of somone (human) ofther than Jesus saying that they came down from heaven? He says "I" came down out of heaven. Not my words, mission, etc. "I".

"... the son of man who is in heaven."
Here, I think he was most likely affirming that the source of everything he did was the Father who is in heaven. Yeshua said that he only did the things which the Father was doing and was showing him. This affirmed that he was totally subservient and dependent upon God the Father for everything. he was heavenly minded. He was in a sense "in heaven" while being literally on Earth. We are called to follow this example.

Fair enough. I would think this would be an example of Him speaking in the present of a future event. When He does this (which He does not do often-2 or 3 times), He is usually speaking of heaven (be with me where I am).

So the bible can say that He's God, that He was in heaven before, and now has come down from heaven, that He's the creator of the world and not mean a single word of it! Wow. I'm not sure where to go from here, but maybe on to some other scriptures.

I have one other question. How did God create "through" Jesus, if Jesus wasn't there?

God bless,

[Guest]

Derek, compadre:

Collosians 1:16 says that Jesus created all things, in my opinion, but since the word "en" can also mean "in", it may not be able to be used in this debate. I will have to look up the common use of the word. I don't think the verse makes sense otherwise.

Have a look. I think the idea here is that that Messiah Jesus was in the mind of God when He created all things “by Himself”, “alone.” All things came out of the Father, but the Father had the son in mind when he created all things.

Can you show an example of somone (human) ofther than Jesus saying that they came down from heaven? He says "I" came down out of heaven. Not my words, mission, etc. "I".

Not off the top of my head. However, we do read “there was a man sent from God, whose name was John. This man came for a witness.” (John 1:6). Interestingly, besides Jesus, I don’t think anyone else is said to have been sent or come "from God". This shouldn’t surprise us, since Jesus' evaluation of this man was that “among those born of women there has not arisen one greater than John the Baptist.”

Likewise, no one else except Jesus Messiah is the actual embodiment of the word of God, the one never sinned, the one who perfectly obeyed God in all matters, the one in whom all things in heaven and Earth are going to be summed up, the one who will rule supreme over the age to come. Thus, it shouldn’t really surprise us to find Jesus using some unique language of himself.

Concerning John having been “sent from God,” it’s not necessary to think that John was literally with God and that he literally came from God, having been sent from Him. Likewise, it’s not necessary to say that Jesus was literally “with God” and “in heaven” before being sent “from God" - “out of heaven.”

So the bible can say that He's God, that He was in heaven before, and now has come down from heaven, that He's the creator of the world and not mean a single word of it! Wow.

Come on bro, you haven’t even come close to showing that your interpretaitonof these texts is required. I have shown plenty of reasonable and logical grounds on which to not to accept your readings of the texts whereas you haven't presented any such grounds on which to refuse my interpretation.

I have one other question. How did God create "through" Jesus, if Jesus wasn't there?

I have explained this several times. To say that the one God made all things “through” Jesus Christ does not require Jesus Christ to have been literally present at the time of the creation (let alone, actually the one God himself!). This can be demonstrated by looking at the range of the meaning of the word dia. Note especially category 2:

G1223
διά

dia

Thayer Definition:

1) through
1a) of place
1a1) with
1a2) in
1b) of time
1b1) throughout
1b2) during
1c) of means
1c1) by
1c2) by the means of

2) through
2a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
2a1) by reason of
2a2) on account of
2a3) because of for this reason
2a4) therefore
2a5) on this account

I hope that explains things. If you think that we've reached a natural pauseto this particular discussion, maybe we can start on some other passages of your choice?

Shalom
Ely

[Guest]

Concerning John having been “sent from God,” it’s not necessary to think that John was literally with God and that he literally came from God, having been sent from Him. Likewise, it’s not necessary to say that Jesus was literally “with God” and “in heaven” before being sent “from God" - “out of heaven.”

I think John 16 in the KJV says Jesus "came out of God" and other translations say he "came forth from God", my guess is that in this case the former is more correct.

[_Derek]

Concerning John having been “sent from God,” it’s not necessary to think that John was literally with God and that he literally came from God, having been sent from Him. Likewise, it’s not necessary to say that Jesus was literally “with God” and “in heaven” before being sent “from God" - “out of heaven.”

So no, no one else is said to have come "from heaven". I asked that specifically becuase I know that others have been "sent from God", which does not mean "from heaven". So the answer is no. Only Jesus is said to have come from heaven.

2) through
2a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
2a1) by reason of
2a2) on account of
2a3) because of for this reason
2a4) therefore
2a5) on this account

So when the bible says that God created "through" Christ, it really means on account of? Let's at least look at a few other uses of the word dia, to see if it fits the trinitarian understanding (that Jesus was the agency by which God created) or yours (that Jesus was the "reason for" the Father creating).

"God [verb] dia [person]", or "[verb] dia [person]". Does your interpretation of "dia" in Col. 1:16 usually fit this structure? Let's see.

In Collosians 1:16b, you have stated that since "created" is in the passive tense, then it could be Jesus or the Father who created. That's fine. So "the Father [created] "dia" [Jesus]". Nothing wrong there. This is a truth all trinitarians embrace. However, you are taking it a step further and asserting that Jesus was not even there at the creation, and that "dia" here must mean something else than "through", like "on account of " or "for this reason" etc..

But does this hold up? Let's look at some examples.

When looking at the word "dia" in reference to an action done "dia" someone by God, it would seem that the word almost always means "acted through" rather than "on account of".

Every time a text says "God [verb] dia [person]" it appears to be speaking of Him using another, or doing something "through" them.

Mat 1:22 Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet

God [spoke] dia [the prophet].

Mat 2:15 He remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: "OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON."

God [spoke] dia [the prophet].

In these instances, are the prophets silent, while the Lord speaks on account of them, or "because of them" or is God speaking "through" them, which means they are speaking too?

It looks very much like these prophets were the "agency" by which God spoke in these passages. I think if you look, and see the word dia, speaking of God doing something through someone, you will see that the person in question, will be the agency by which He did it, rather than "on account of" etc.

Some examples of "[verb] dia [person]"

Mat 2:5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,

[written] dia [the prophet]

Mat 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

[spoken] dia [the prophets]

Mat 4:14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,

[spoken] dia [Isaiah]

In these examples, and many more, when a verb precedes dia, the person that follows will be the one who carries out the verb. Look it up.

Over and over, when God is said to have spoken "through" the prophets, it is obvious that they are the agency by which He was speaking, meaning they were actually speaking. He wasn't speaking on account of them. Yet Collosians 1:16, is the one instance where God is said to do something "through" someone, and this time, the person is not the agent He was working through?

One more time:

...all things have been created through Him and for Him.

So the Father is the one who "created" here. If we compare scripture with scripture, noting the common use of the word dia, it cannot be denied that "through Him" means that Jesus was the agent through which God created.

The structure of this statement is the same as the ones above.

God spoke "dia" the prophets, and He created "dia" Jesus. Therefore Jesus was there when God created, every bit as much as the prophets were there when God spoke through them.

It is not enough to just state the different ways in which a word is used, without noting "when" it is used those different ways. You can't just stick any of those meanings in whenever you want. Look it up and see for yourself. Almost everytime this structure is used, it can only mean one thing.

Derek wrote:
Collosians 1:16 says that Jesus created all things, in my opinion, but since the word "en" can also mean "in", it may not be able to be used in this debate. I will have to look up the common use of the word. I don't think the verse makes sense otherwise.

Have a look. I think the idea here is that that Messiah Jesus was in the mind of God when He created all things “by Himself”, “alone.” All things came out of the Father, but the Father had the son in mind when he created all things.

I think it has been shown that Jesus is the agent by which God created, so I think that it's safe to assume that "en" is indeed "by" in 16a.

Again, it could be said: 1.God spoke 2. the prophet spoke 3. God spoke through the prophet. All are true.

Likewise it could be said that: 1.the Father created all things 2. Jesus created all things 3. The Father created all things through Jesus. All are true.

I am not saying that "dia" never means what you need it to mean here, to make your interpretation work. It does mean that sometimes. But you will find find that 99.9% of the time that the structures mentioned above are used, it can only mean "through", which means the agents acted too.

I hope that explains things. If you think that we've reached a natural pauseto this particular discussion, maybe we can start on some other passages of your choice?

I hope to get your response to the above, but then I would love to go over some other scriptures. Especially the ones I get to choose! 8)

God bless brother!

[Guest]

Hey brother, my Berean brethren! The net result of all of this searching will definitely be that we are both in a better position to know and serve God. Aiight then…

So no, no one else is said to have come "from heaven". I asked that specifically becuase I know that others have been "sent from God", which does not mean "from heaven". So the answer is no. Only Jesus is said to have come from heaven.

Fine. We’ve gone through our different points of view on this one. We’ll have to let that one lie.

When looking at the word "dia" in reference to an action done "dia" someone by God, it would seem that the word almost always means "acted through" rather than "on account of".

Derek, there’s something similar about all the texts you quoted. When we read something like “it was written by the prophet: “out of Egypt I called My son” obviously, it is referring to that which was literally written by Hosea. Likewise, when we read things like “many mighty works were done dia the apostles,” it’s plain that the apostles themselves literally did the works. It seems that most of the texts which speak of God doing something dia someone else fall into this kind of category. However, when we come to a text like Colossians 1:16, there is no obvious reason to assume that Jesus was literally doing the creating with the Father.

In these examples, and many more, when a verb precedes dia, the person that follows will be the one who carries out the verb. Look it up.

I have looked it up. It took me a while. Good thing I’m single and can devote hours to these kinds of reasonings. According to E-Sword, the word dia is used 609 times in 545 verses. I went through every single occurrence, looking out for this [verb] dia [person] construction. I found that on a multitude of occasions, we are required to interpret dia as meaning “on account of”, “for the sake of”, “for the reason of.” Here are some examples. Try and translate the word as “by” or “through the agency of” and see if it works:

3 For Herod had laid hold of John and bound him, and put him in prison dia Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife.

And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made dia man, and not man dia the Sabbath. Mark 2:27

“Nor was man created dia the woman, but woman dia the man.” 1 Corinthians 9:11

“For we who live are always delivered to death dia Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.” 2 Corinthians 4:11

“He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times dia you” 1 Peter 1:20

In case you or anyone is interested, here are other examples I found: Mat 27:19, Mark 3:9, 13:20, Luke 5:19, 8:19, 11:42, John 7:43, 11:13, 11:42, 12:9, 12:30, 12:42, 19;42, Acts 4:21, 16:3, Romans 2:24, 1 Corinthians 4:6, 10:28, 11:10, 2 Corinthians 4:11, 8:9, Philippians 3:7-8, 1 Thessalonians 3:9, 2 Timothy 2:10, 1 Peter 2;13, 2 Peter 2:2 (note that the word is most often used in this way by John and Paul, the authors of the “all things were made dia Christ” texts).

So, the use of dia in the kind of construction we are talking about does not necessitate that “when a verb precedes dia, the person that follows will be the one who carries out the verb.” This is sometimes the case, sometimes not the case.

Over and over, when God is said to have spoken "through" the prophets, it is obvious that they are the agency by which He was speaking, meaning they were actually speaking. He wasn't speaking on account of them. Yet Collosians 1:16, is the one instance where God is said to do something "through" someone, and this time, the person is not the agent He was working through?

One instance? Well, no, there are others:

[Abraham] did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now it was not written dia him alone that it was accounted to him, 24 but also dia us.” Romans 4:20-24

“For it is written in the law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain.” Is it oxen God is concerned about? Or does He say it altogether dia us? Dia us, no doubt, this is written” 1 Corinthians 9:9-10

Are they [angels] not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister dia those who will inherit salvation? Hebrews 1:14

It seems perfectly reasonable to suppose that Paul was using the same dia construction in Colossians 1:16 as he did in these passages.

I think it has been shown that Jesus is the agent by which God created, so I think that it's safe to assume that "en" is indeed "by" in 16a.

It has not been demonstrated that Jesus is the agent by which God created. And you also have not refuted the idea that Jesus was the purpose/reason for which God created. Thus, it is not safe to assume that “en” is “by” in Colossians 1:16!

[_Derek]

Ely,

Man you're hard-headed!! :-)

So, the use of dia in the kind of construction we are talking about does not necessitate that “when a verb precedes dia, the person that follows will be the one who carries out the verb.” This is sometimes the case, sometimes not the case.

I too looked all of those up on eSword. I'll have to agree for now, though I didn't see this earlier for some reason. Had my trinitarian blinders on I suppose!

Not quite done though.

It appears that every bible translation that I have, and every scholars comments I have read are part of a trinitarian conspiracy! I'm not sure where to go from here. Another verse soon I promise.

In looking through all of these verses, I am coming to John 1:3 again, and I'm not sure how it fits with your interpretation either.

If you don't mind, let's look at it.

Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

This very much seems to support my conclusions about Collosians 1:16 and Hebrews 1:2.

3a can perhaps be translated "because of" on "account of" etc.., but how does that make sense with 3b?

How is it that nothing came into being that has come into being without Him?

Thayer Definition:
1) separate, apart
1a) without any
1b) besides

These word makes it seem as though nothing was made without Him.

Halfway through writing this I realized that you will probably de-personalize the word "him" turning it into "it" and say "without the plan of God nothing was made." Oh well, I've written it now.

One more verse worthy of noting while we discuss Christ as creator, is Heb. 1:10 (a chapter we'll start another thread on).

"Unto the Son He said (vs. 8)

Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Remember this is the same chapter that says of the Son "by whom also He made the worlds".


Thanks bro. I'm enjoying our discussion.

[_Derek]

Ely,

I have been saying (along with most Christians on the planet for the last 2000 years~sorry had to say it) that John 1:3; Collosians 1:16; and Hebrews 1:2 all say that the world was created through Jesus, which means it could also be said that He actually created the world.

You have posited some very ingenious interpretations of the word "dia" for all of these verses, thus retaining your Unitarian theology...for now 8) .

So, I am sure that you know of the verses in the old testament that have the One God speaking of Himself as "us".

The first one I'm wondering about, could be used to support the thesis that Jesus was the agent through which God created, so I'm wondering what your take on it is. The passage is Genesis one.

No need to comment on this point, because it doesn't really prove anything, but it first strikes me, and probably most trinitarians, that there is very much a picture of the trinity presented in Gen. 1.

You have "In the beginning God..."

You have God's Spirit "moving upon the face of the waters".

You have the "word" of God creating. "And God said.."

These don't prove anything, but they are pretty neat when read with trinitarian presuppositions none the less.

Anyhoo, what's with the "us" in vs. 26?

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

You have cited Isaiah 44:24 which states that God created the heavens and earth "alone". You know what trinitarians think of this, what's your take on it?

Other examples of this phenomenon would be:

Gen. 3:22

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Who is God putting on an equal level with Himself in such a way that He could say "one of us"?

Genesis 11:7 (Babel):

Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

Isaiah 6:

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

Looking forward to your answers!

God bless,

[Guest]

Hey Derek,

I am somewhat hard-headed. But I think we are a bit similar in that respects!

About the "us" and "we" passages, these are cases either of 1) Plural of intensity or 2) Yahweh speaking to the anglels. I probably lean toward 1. In Hebrew, as we shall no doubt see at some stage in our reasonings, plural forms are often used when refering to a single being. the only problem with this idea would be that there is probably only one other cases of a plural pronoun being used of a single being.

I'll comeback with some thoughts on Hebrews 1:10 a bit later.

[_Derek]

1) Plural of intensity

I have no idea what you're talking about! Can you give an example?

2) Yahweh speaking to the anglels

Come on. "One of us angels"? "In the image of us angels"?

Are we made in anyway in the image of angels? Does the bible ever teach that? Sounds a bit desperate!

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God

Is. 44:24Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself

God bless,