The "Godhead"?

[Guest]

Hello, TK,

Thank you for your response.

my answer may be naive-- but how could earlier scripture reveal that Jesus is part of the "Godhead" before Jesus was revealed?

Earlier scripture could reveal the existence of a Godhead before the incarnation. It could easily enough have framed its articulation of God as a trinity, rather than an individual. If Jesus were not revealed by the name "Jesus," he certainly could have been revealed as a second person within the divine unity.

Earlier scripture could have established a consistent line of revelation, rather than a centuries-old trend of individuality, without indication of trinity.


Shlamaa,
Emmet

[Guest]

Rick, thanks for that link, I'll give at a read - and look forward to your thread, thought I'm not sure how "deep" I'll be able to go before bailing out!

For the record, I am neither an Arian or a Modalist. The Father is the only true God, Jesus Christ is His only begotten son, fully man and fully... man, the greatest man who has ever lived, THE son of man!


Ely, Why is Jesus the greatest man who has ever lived? Seriously because other great men have made great sacrifices.

Great question!! Here are some reasons:

For one thing, he is the only man who has perfectly obeyed everything God in all matters, all his life. He's the only man who has successfully resisted all temptation to sin. He's the only man who has been resurrected from the dead, never to die again. He's the man who God has chosen to reveal His plans for the whole of His creation. He's the one for whom God created all things. He's the one through whom God will judge all men when they are raised from their graves. He's the one who will rule over the age to come. He is second only to Yahweh Himself in terms of authority in the Universe, just as Joseph was second only to Pharoah. And so on, and so on! In short, he's THE man!

Hello, Ely,

For what it's worth (if I am not too far off), "orthodox" trinitarianism does not view the Godhead as a "class/kind/type." The diction of "Godhead" emphasizes the plurality of persons, but this does not contravene the tenet that there remains but one divine being.

Hey Emmet. I don't in any way mean to ridicule or denegrate my Trinitarian brothers. But terms like "kind/type/class" are the only ones I can think of to describe the Trinitarian concept of oneness of God - i.e. the "Godhead". Within this framework, I can't see how one can talk of God as a He and I really don't see how one can avoid speaking of God as an It.

[Guest]

Ely said:

For one thing, he is the only man who has perfectly obeyed everything God in all matters, all his life. He's the only man who has successfully resisted all temptation to sin.

How?

TK

[Guest]

Hello, Ely,

Thank you for your response.

I don't in any way mean to ridicule or denegrate my Trinitarian brothers. But terms like "kind/type/class" are the only ones I can think of to describe the Trinitarian concept of oneness of God - i.e. the "Godhead". Within this framework, I can't see how one can talk of God as a He and I really don't see how one can avoid speaking of God as an It.

It may be overly generous to consider Trinitarians "brothers." Are they not idolators?

For what it is worth, we might yet speak of an individual with multiple personality disorder as "he" or "she," despite their plural personalities; the afflicted party is still a single organism, despite the psychological plurality.

We still may ask whether God appears to have evidenced such a plural character consistently, or whether it seems to be a theological innovation.


Shlamaa,
Emmet

[Guest]

Ely said:

For one thing, he is the only man who has perfectly obeyed everything God in all matters, all his life. He's the only man who has successfully resisted all temptation to sin.

How?

TK

How? Interesting question. I guess I'd say that he consistently maintained the correct mentality about himself in relation to His God and consistently put this into practice. His reward for doing so is very great. You and I, as his disciples, are to mimic him by having this same mentality in us. Our reward for doing so will be very great too!

It may be overly generous to consider Trinitarians "brothers." Are they not idolators?

Come now Emmet. If you want to make such judgements, you're free to do so. But not me. I certainly do not consider Trinitarians to be idolaters. I consider them to be monotheists who are genuinely seeking to know, love and serve the one true God and His son Jesus Christ whom He sent as best as they know how. That's what I'm trying to do too, so, that's why we are brothers!

[Guest]

Ely,

I would really like to discuss this, but I don't have time right now. I am curious, have you heard Steve's lectures on the divinity of Christ? They are in the "Knowing God" series on His website.

If you haven't, I would recommend it.

God bless,

[Guest]

If I am not too far off, "orthodox" trinitarianism posits one God = one divine eternal being in three persons. The second person (Word=Jesus?) is eternally begotten from the first person (the Father), and the third person eternally proceeds from the first person (the Father; in the Western tradition, the third person also proceeds from the second person, Jesus).

As you might expect, I will parallel Ely: such a God-concept is a novel divergence from the basic tenor of the Hebrew bible.


Emmet, I think it's a divergence from the jewish understanding of the hebrew bible but i don't think God was real impressed with their understanding of their own bible.
I can't see how all three could be eternally begotten yet be one God and i'm sure i'll get an "AMEN" from you, but seriously it's simply a contradiction.
In the OT , God manifested Himself on earth in various ways although He was in heaven yet omnipresent therefore His divinity or essence did not have to be limited to one body.
So we have hints of one God yet more then one presence.

[Guest]

Derek,

Thanks. I have indeed listened to that series. Some parts of it I have listened to several times. I re-listened to parts of it again the other day. He makes a humble and well presented case for the divinity of Jesus. But I find that the vast majority of the arguments presented can be solidly and plainly answered from a Unitarian position.

On the contrary however, there are very many fundamental, obvious issues/ problems which cannot be explained/answered from a Trinitarian perspective without much recourse to that term, "mystery," a term which Steve uses plentifully in the series.

[Guest]

ely-

do you believe in the virgin birth?

i hate to keep asking you little questions like this but i would like to know exactly where you are coming from.

and thanks for not calling me an idolator!

TK

[Guest]

Hello, Ely,

Thank you for your response.

kaufmannphillips: It may be overly generous to consider Trinitarians "brothers." Are they not idolators?

Ely: Come now Emmet. If you want to make such judgements, you're free to do so. But not me. I certainly do not consider Trinitarians to be idolaters. I consider them to be monotheists who are genuinely seeking to know, love and serve the one true God and His son Jesus Christ whom He sent as best as they know how. That's what I'm trying to do too, so, that's why we are brothers!

What is an idolator, if not one who treats that which is not God as if it were God, robbing God of that which is rightly his alone and giving it to another?

I raise the question; God will hand down judgment(s).


Of course, there may be idolaters with better intentions than others, just as there may be adulterers with better intentions than others. But should one be bedfellows with either?


Shlamaa,
Emmet