No need for repentance???

[Guest]

I'm not sure if Jesus was being sarcastic or simply rebuking them by likening them to "whitewashed walls" and similar descriptions.

[Guest]

Steve,

I'm not sure if Jesus was being sarcastic or simply rebuking them by likening them to "whitewashed walls" and similar descriptions.

You may be right too.

[Guest]

Hello, Steve,

Nice to hear from you .

kaufmannphillips: In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, of the division of Abijah. And he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord. [emphasis added]

steve7150: Isn't this the same Zechariah who shortly thereafter had his lips zipped up because of his lack of faith that his wife could be pregnant. Apparently righteousness is not necessarily literal nor is it a permanent condition since we are all leaky vessels.
I agree with Paidion in that Jesus was not literally calling people righteous.

(aleph) A somewhat harder case to make for Luke. Would you say he intended not to be literal when characterizing Zechariah and Elizabeth as "righteous before God"?

(beth) On the one hand, I think some Christians are a bit overwrought in this department. For some such persons, only absolute perfection in heart, mind, and deed qualifies as "righteousness." What we have here is an intrusion of Platonic philosophy into theology, which needs be a practical discipline first and foremost.

What is the vector of theology when it comes to "righteousness" - prior to certain strains of Christianity, that is?

Genesis 7:1 ~ Then the Lord said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you are righteous before me in this generation.

Exodus 23:7 ~ Keep far from a false charge, and do not kill the innocent and righteous, for I will not acquit the wicked.

I Kings 8:32 ~ Then hear in heaven and act and judge your servants, condemning the guilty by bringing his conduct on his own head, and vindicating the righteous by rewarding him according to his righteousness.

Psalm 1:5 ~ Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Psalm 11:5 ~ The Lord tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.

Psalm 32:11 ~ Be glad in the Lord, and rejoice, O righteous, and shout for joy, all you upright in heart!

Psalm 33:1 ~ Shout for joy in the Lord, O you righteous! Praise befits the upright.

Psalm 37:17 ~ For the arms of the wicked shall be broken, but the Lord upholds the righteous.

Psalm 118:15a ~ Glad songs of salvation are in the tents of the righteous...

Psalm 118:20 ~ This is the gate of the Lord; the righteous shall enter through it.

Psalm 125:3 ~ For the scepter of wickedness shall not rest on the land allotted to the righteous, lest the righteous stretch out their hands to do wrong.

Proverbs 9:9 ~ Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be still wiser; teach a righteous man, and he will increase in learning.

Proverbs 10:28 ~ The hope of the righteous brings joy, but the expectation of the wicked will perish.

Proverbs 15:29 ~ The Lord is far from the wicked, but he hears the prayer of the righteous.

Proverbs 18:10 ~ The name of the Lord is a strong tower; the righteous man runs into it and is safe.

Proverbs 23:24 ~ The father of the righteous will greatly rejoice; he who fathers a wise son will be glad in him.

Lamentations 4:13 ~ This was for the sins of her prophets and the iniquities of her priests, who shed in the midst of her the blood of the righteous.

Ezekiel 3:21 ~ But if you warn the righteous person not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning, and you will have delivered your soul.

Ezekiel 18:5-9 ~ If a man is righteous and does what is just and right - if he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman in her time of menstrual impurity, does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, does not lend at interest or take any profit, withholds his hand from injustice, executes true justice between man and man, walks in my statutes, and keeps my rules by acting faithfully - he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord God.

Ezekile 23:45 ~ But righteous men shall pass judgment on them with the sentence of adulteresses, and with the sentence of women who shed blood, because they are adulteresses, and blood is on their hands.

Amos 2:6 ~ Thus says the Lord: For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not revoke the punishment, because they sell the righteous for silver, and the needy for a pair of sandals -

Does the vector of precedent suggest that none are actually righteous? Are we really to imagine that all of these texts are not literal, and that such was the understanding of those who wrote them, and those who read them? Or should we rather consider that later theology has recast a novel perspective on "righteousness"?

"Righteousness" is not restricted to utter perfection; rather, it is a matter of fundamental character.

(gymel) And on the other hand, though for some Christians doubt may instinctively seem a cardinal sin, it is not clear that Zechariah's doubt compromises his righteousness or his blamelessness. Zechariah could fairly doubt his mystical experience, without for a moment compromising his devotion to God; the angel of the narrative says that Zechariah did not believe the angel's words, but does not accuse the righteous old man of doubting God. In any case, entertaining a margin of doubt seems essential to an authentic commitment to truth; a person who cannot doubt cannot be corrected.


Shlamaa,
Emmet

[Guest]

Fanastic last post Emmet. Good stuff!

[Guest]

Here is another passage that might be added to Emmet's list:

He has told you, O man, what is good,
And what the LORD requires of you:
Only to do justice,
And to love goodness,
And to walk modestly with your God... Micah 6:8

Jewish Publication Society TANAKH TRANSLATION

[mgarrett]

Does the vector of precedent suggest that none are actually righteous? Are we really to imagine that all of these texts are not literal, and that such was the understanding of those who wrote them, and those who read them? Or should we rather consider that later theology has recast a novel perspective on "righteousness"?

"Righteousness" is not restricted to utter perfection; rather, it is a matter of fundamental character.

According to this reasoning, then when Jesus said that there are righteous ones who need no repentance, He was not being sarcastic about the pharisees but was referring to real people who (albeit not perfect) are considered righteous and did not need to repent.

If this is so, it goes against current standard teaching that since "all have sinned" everyone needs to repent and be converted. Thoughts?

Todd

[Guest]

According to this reasoning, then when Jesus said that there are righteous ones who need no repentance, He was not being sarcastic about the pharisees but was referring to real people who (albeit not perfect) are considered righteous and did not need to repent?

If this is so, it goes against current standard teaching that since "all have sinned" everyone needs to repent and be converted. Thoughts?


My thoughts are that what Emmet is referring to is something other then Christianity.

[mgarrett]

My thoughts are that what Emmet is referring to is something other then Christianity.

Steve,

I'm not sure what you mean by this statement. Could you explain further.

Todd

[Guest]

if jesus was NOT being sarcastic, but was referring to people who REALLY WERE righteous, then it seems he must have been referring to the true believing remnant. there were some Jews who were still in right-standing with God, and obviously those that were not.

TK

[Guest]

Righteousness" is not restricted to utter perfection; rather, it is a matter of fundamental character.



What i mean Todd is that in the realm of Christianity we obtain righteousness through real faith in God in the OT and real faith in Christ in the NT otherwise known as "imputed righteousness."
We all sin and we all need to repent and gradually over the course of our lives if we follow Christ, we will become more like him but none of us are righteous on our own. If we are deemed righteous it's a gift of God and if we believe ourselves to be righteous (like some Pharisees) then we are a long way from the Kingdom of God.