Resurrection and Judgment

[Guest]

Matt 16:27-28
27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

This first scripture uses language that we usually associate with judgment - "he will reward each according to his works." The next verse says that this event will begin within a generation.

Luke 3:15-17
15 Now as the people were in expectation, and all reasoned in their hearts about John, whether he was the Christ or not, 16 John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 17 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather the wheat into His barn; but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire."

In this scripture John the Baptist talks about the Day of Pentecost saying that Christ will baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire. Then he describes the execution of judgment. The wheat that is gathered into the barn are those who hear the word and believe and receive life. The chaff that is burned are those who reject Christ. This burning in fire is the punishment we receive in our lifetime when we are overcome in sin (e.g., Romans 1). This is also what I believe is being taught in John Chapter 5 and Revelation Chapter 20. It is not a post resurrection event; it is an ongoing current event. Notice the similar language to Revelation 20: "Baptism of Fire" and "Lake of Fire" - this is the same thing (IMO).

I would take both of these to be about 70ad.

[Guest]

One of the main reasons that I conclude that all judgment must be concluded prior to the destruction of death is the chronology set forth in 1 Cor 15:20-28.

1 Cor 15:20-28
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Here Paul states that there is an order to the resurrection. There are three distinct resurrections mentioned here.

1. Christ the firstfruits. This is the resurrection of Christ.
2. Those who are Christ's at His coming. This is the same event Paul speaks of in 1 Th 4:13-18. Paul says the dead in Christ will rise first. If you just read 1 Th 4 you get the impression that the dead in Christ only precede those "who are alive and remain." But it seems that they also preceed the rest of creation. Paul speaks of this in Romans 8:18-23 and again in 1 Cor 15:24-26.
3. Death is destroyed. This must be referring to the resurrection of all those not included in "those who are Christ's" I just mentioned. Prior to this point we are told that Christ must reign until all his enemies are under his feet. These enemies would include all sin and disobedience.

Therefore, by the time death is destroyed, God has no more enemies. All that is left at this point is for Christ to turn everything back over to God so that God can be ALL in ALL. "Judgment Day" must occur before death is destroyed and is probably part of the subduing of Christ's enemies under his feet.

If my logic is flawed here please comment.

Todd

[Guest]

My last post explains my view of this. Death and Hades (in Revelation - a book of metaphors) is probably referring to spiritual death.



How do you know the whole NT isn't a metaphor? Everyplace else that "hades" is mentioned it is not a spiritual death , it means grave. It is the greek word used to translate the hebrew word for grave which is "sheol."
And if hades means grave then the use of "death" in "death and hades" would mean physical death and that in turn would make Rev 20 a scene of resurrection and judgement.

[Guest]

3. Death is destroyed. This must be referring to the resurrection of all those not included in "those who are Christ's" I just mentioned. Prior to this point we are told that Christ must reign until all his enemies are under his feet. These enemies would include all sin and disobedience.




But the sequence is that Christ returns raises the dead who are in Him. But then there is some undefined period of time when Christ STILL must reign until all things are put under his feet.
Another words at his coming there are still things not under his feet so he still must continue to reign. Since the earth is burned up at his coming yet he still must reign , where could this happen?
Yes bible fans it will be in the LOF. It seems to me that if verses 25 and 24 were reversed Paul would be clearer , but i think that's what he means.

[Guest]

Todd, "Do not marvel at THIS" as Derek pointed out is drawing a CONTRAST between 2 different events which are the spiritual resurrection of believers and the physical resurrection of everyone.
And then in sequential order Christ again contrasts two different judgements one to "life" one to "condemnation."

Steve,

I believe the contrast is referring to the number of hearers. In v24-25 only those who meet Christ face-to-face hear his voice. In v28-29 "all" hear his voice.

Todd

Steve,

Here's a little follow-up on this post. One might ask why I say that "all" hear His voice on the Day of Pentecost and face two different outcomes. This is a reasonable question. There are two main verses which I believe support this idea.

John 16:7-8
7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment

Jesus says that when the Holy Spirit comes he will convict the world. This represents a dramatic change from the way God dealt with sin in the past. This is equivalent to saying that "all" will hear His voice. "Those who have done evil" (John 5:29) will be condemned in their heart by the Holy Spirit and suffer the real-time punishment associated with it. Conversely, "Those who have done good" will be rewarded with God's spiritual blessings. This is the same thing that Jesus is referring to with the story of the sheep and the goats. Those who help the needy are rewarded while those who refrain from doing good are convicted by the Holy Spirit.

Luke 3:16-17
16 John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 17 His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

This second scripture also speaks of the coming of the Holy Spirit. Two different outcomes are mentioned here just as they are in John 5:29. The "wheat" is gathered - these are those who through faith in Christ do what is good. The "chaff" is burned - these are those who, in disobedience to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, suffer the punishment of condemnation.

I believe that this is what the Lake of Fire is referring to as well. Those who are spiritually dead in this life suffer the conviction and condemnation of the Holy Spirit. This punishment is meant to urge repentance.

Todd

[Guest]

One of the main reasons that I conclude that all judgment must be concluded prior to the destruction of death is the chronology set forth in 1 Cor 15:20-28.

Do you think your idea "that all judgment must be concluded prior to the destruction of death" is the only possible way to understand that chronology? Do you see any possibility that judgment takes place within that chronology?

FOF, will all of Christ's enemies willingly subject themselves to Christ at the time of their resurrection? And if so, what will induce them to do so? Would the "judgment" they experience while still on this earth be sufficient?

It seems to me that many of those who hate everything good, would continue to do so, even after their resurrection.

[Guest]

One of the main reasons that I conclude that all judgment must be concluded prior to the destruction of death is the chronology set forth in 1 Cor 15:20-28.

Do you think your idea "that all judgment must be concluded prior to the destruction of death" is the only possible way to understand that chronology? Do you see any possibility that judgment takes place within that chronology?

FOF, will all of Christ's enemies willingly subject themselves to Christ at the time of their resurrection? And if so, what will induce them to do so? Would the "judgment" they experience while still on this earth be sufficient?

It seems to me that many of those who hate everything good, would continue to do so, even after their resurrection.

Paidion,

This is a fair question. You asked...

Do you see any possibility that judgment takes place within that chronology?

My answer to this is yes, it must be so. I think the main scripture in 1 Cor 15 which describes judgment/correction/reconciliation is this....

1 Cor 15:25
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.

As I see it, His reign started when He ascended on high after His resurrection and will continue until all his enemies are subject to him. For many people this "subjection" occurs during this life, for many others it does not happen in their lifetime. So then, is there something that happens in death (prior to the resurrection of the unjust) that will serve to bring their subjection? Based on Paul's chronology, the answer must be yes, because he specifically says that death is the last enemy. Immediately prior to death's destruction, Christ has no other enemies.

It could be that death itself serves to purge the ungodly of their pride and sinfulness - this is because death destroys the flesh. Paul said,

Rom 6:7
He that is dead is freed from sin

Paul also says that those who are overcome in sin deserve death (Rom 1:32), calling death "God's righteous decree."

And again, Paul says...

Rom 6:23
For the wages of sin is death,...

The other possibility is that Christ's return brings some kind of correction (Judgment Day) upon the dead that finds its completion before they are resurrected. I could only speculate how this would work but it seems possible. However, I really believe that those scriptures which talk about the terror of Judgment Day refer only to those ungodly who are still alive when Christ returns.

Rev 1:7
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

Anyway, these are my thoughts. I could certainly be wrong and welcome any other ideas that you believe fit Paul's chronology.

Todd

[Guest]

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident



"Those who are Christ's at his coming" , where does this include unbelievers Todd? As far as death being destroyed we know there is a second death which means there is a first death and then a resurrection and then a period of time for something to occur and lastly a second death.
If there were'nt a period of time between the two deaths there would be no need for a second death.
I don't think you can leave out Rev 20 if you want a complete picture of judgment.
I would suggest that maybe the burning bush is a picture of judgment when the bush appeared to be on fire but never really literally burned, perhaps that will be the type of fire found in the LOF.

[Guest]

Btw the lake of fire itself is also called the second death so perhaps at some point it gets destroyed also.
"This is the second death,the lake of fire" Rev 20.14
The problem i have with your interpretation is whether there is judgment during this life or even during physical death i can't see any true justice. And justice is the most important aspect of God's law "Matt 23.23."
In your interpretation it hardly matters whether you follow Christ yet the early church went through torture and deprivation and death to stay true to him and spread the gospel, but according to you it really was not all that important because whatever you do in this life "all is forgiven."

If you read Rev 20 in it's natural sequence it does'nt support your view and if you look at the visible evidence of unbelievers lives it does'nt support your view.
You can say they are tormented but in general there is no evidence of this. Not that i envy them at all but i think most people do a remarkable job of suppressing the truth, yet Paul says that ,all will come to a knowledge of the truth in due time.
Due time is certainly not in this life.

[Guest]

"Those who are Christ's at his coming" , where does this include unbelievers Todd?

It doesn't. I never said that it did. What I have said is that the dead in Christ will rise first. Then, at some undetermined period of time later, the rest of creation is raised. I have no idea how much time will pass between the two. Paul has said that the resurrection happens in three parts (1) Christ's resurrection, (2) resurrection of the just, (3) death is destroyed (unjust).

As far as death being destroyed we know there is a second death which means there is a first death and then a resurrection and then a period of time for something to occur and lastly a second death.
If there were'nt a period of time between the two deaths there would be no need for a second death.

Steve, you are making assumptions here. You assume that since it is called "the second death" that it follows chronologically from the "first death" which we both assume is referring to physical death. The question is, what is the second death? The only death Paul refers to in his writings other than physical death is spiritual death - being dead in sin. This is what I believe the "second death" is.

1 Tim 5:6
But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives.

Eph 2:1
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

Col 2:13
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

So, if the second death is referring to spiritual death, then it doesn't follow chronologically with the first death.

The problem i have with your interpretation is whether there is judgment during this life or even during physical death i can't see any true justice. And justice is the most important aspect of God's law "Matt 23.23."

This too is assuming that God's justice means that everyone gets what they deserve (e.g., "eye for eye"). Christ rejected this type of justice.

Matt 5:38-39
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Todd