UNCLE JOE AND THE SECRET BASEMENT CHAMBER OF BAD BOB

[Guest]

why would a good God hurt anybody, for anything?

Why does a good and loving earthly father sometimes spank his younger children? Why does he sometimes ground his older children or take away their privileges?

All of this hurts, but it is meant to correct.

Is that what God was doing in 70ad? Do you think that He did that to save them...or to judge them?

There is no difference. All of God's judgments are remedial! If a person or family or nation suffers greatly, and they are not corrected or influenced to be corrected by it, then it was not God's judgment.

I agree that all God's punishments are meant to bring repentance. I also believe that what the Bible describes as "God's Wrath" can be understood to mean "The natural result of sin in our hearts and in the world leading to pain and suffering to individuals and to the masses." This is what I believe we are taught in Romans Chapter 1. I also believe that this is what happened in AD70. It is also what lead to the execution of Christ. I think we always have looked at "God's Wrath" as God taking out His anger on mankind. This is the personification of God that is portrayed in the Bible. But, I think the truth is that sin has its natural consequences; and it is from these consequences that Christ came to save us.

Todd

[Guest]

The topic being discussed here was eternal punishment, not temporal judgment. 70 A.D. was certainly viewed as God’s judgment upon Israel’s political and religious leadership, but it was also the predictable outcome of their actions; which Jesus tried to warn them about and steer them away from.

Either way we are dealing with judgement. I could say the same thing about the punishment after death. That "it was also the predictable outcome of their actions; which Jesus tried to warn them about and steer them away from."

I don't know how to justify "eternal torment", but that is not my position. I lean more toward an annihilationist understanding. So when I speak of God punishing evil, I am always speaking of a temporary thing. Not that I have it all figured out. That's why I say I "lean" in that direction.

Clearly God hates sin because it defaces and destroys His beloved creation. Sin leads to estrangement, destruction and death (I’m speaking in the temporal sense). But sin is much more complicated than simple willful rebellion. What I see, for example in God’s interaction with Cain on the topic of sin, or in Jesus’ interaction with various sinners, is concern, compassion, mercy, grace and a desire to redeem and restore.

God also gets angry at the one that sins and punishes them. Sometimes He is seeking to teach and restore those that He punishes, (to make them partakers of His Holiness), but sometime He just wipes them off the planet altogether, like the Edomites. I think it would be hard to show how He had a mind to restore them, (rather than punish them), at that point.

This is not to say that God is not merciful, nor that He doesn't want to restore relationships with people, of course He does, that is what the cross is all about. But there appears to be a point, where judgement comes. A person is given over (to what they choose). What that point is, I don't know.

Are you speaking in the temporal sense or the eternal sense? My son used to sometimes make me angry and sometimes I punished him when he disobeyed. My reason for doing so, however, was concern for his safety or the development of his character, etc. In other words, there was a productive intent behind my anger and punishment. Likewise and more so with God. The problem with eternal torment is that there appears to be no productive intent to it.

I am speaking of either.

Again, how was God showing "concern for his safety or the development of the character" for the Edomites in exterminating them? Could it not be that they deserved to be punished so they were? Why is this wrong for God, who is perfect? In this life or the next?

I’ve known plenty of people who aren’t followers of Jesus, including many atheists and agnostics, but I’ve met very few people who actually hate God. Many hate the image of God that has been portrayed to them (and many of us would hate that same distorted image). Jesus seemed to hate the distorted image of God that the Pharisees promoted in order to further their own agenda.

Perhaps "hate" was a strong word, at least in the absolute sense. I suppose I meant that they show Him they hate Him in the way they deny Him, and live with their backs to Him.

Cornelius Van Til, is really just re-stating Anselm’s “Satisfaction View” of the Atonement - "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement_ ... tion_view)" - which has its basis in a medieval feudalistic worldview. This is a great example of us inheriting a doctrine which is based more on Church tradition than on biblical hermeneutics.

Van Til definitly was a believer in Penal Substitution, rather than Anselm's view, being a 5-point Calvinist.

However, I am not so sure that the Satisfaction theory does not have some biblical merit. I think that most of the major atonement theories have merit. No one of them has the whole truth though, in my opinion.

That being said, I think that Van Til was just illustrating how a person lives as if God does not exist, while His existence is obvious, in nature, and in the fact that we are made in His image. We are owned by God, we are His creation and live in His creation, etc..

God bless bro,

[Guest]

Some questions for universalists:

1. If God can not punish eternally, is it OK for him to punish Hitler for, say 100,000 years? And if so, why not eternally? What is there that makes an "ages" long punishment acceptable, but not eternal? If 100,000 years is "just", could not eternal punishment be also just if sin was much more serious in God's eyes than we perceive it to be?

2. How can a good God allow terrible suffering in this life? Little innocent children suffering horribly? And yet God ordered the Amalakites slaughtered, men, women, and children, for what their ancestors had done to the Israelites 400 years before!

3. How could a good God cause all humankind to suffer and die for one small sin by Adam and Eve? Do we perhaps have a radically different perspective regarding the seriousness of sin than God does?

4. And how about Uzzah, put to death by God for a well intentioned act, trying to stop the Arc from falling?

5. May not eternal punishment be something other than literal burning in a lake of fire? What about being cast "into outer darkness", total separation from God? Would this be more palatable to you?

6. Did the God of the Old Testament repent and become a Christian?
Perhaps we have put God on trial, rather than the other way around.

Universalism is based on very weak exegesis, lots of speculation, and well intentioned wishful thinking. Hey, even I hope it is true, but fear it is not.

As for those who have never heard the gospel, I am confident of God's mercy. " Mercy overcomes judgement"; He will do what is right.

[Guest]

Hi Derek,

Either way we are dealing with judgement. I could say the same thing about the punishment after death. That "it was also the predictable outcome of their actions; which Jesus tried to warn them about and steer them away from."

Who could you say that about? The Pharisees? Perhaps. They encountered Jesus face-to-face. But could you say that about the proverbial person who has never heard the Gospel? What about the person who only heard the message of Jesus in a distorted fashion, such as a medieval European peasant?

I lean more toward an annihilationist understanding. So when I speak of God punishing evil, I am always speaking of a temporary thing.

Ah, that’s interesting. So we both lean away from the doctrine of eternal torment, just in different directions.

… sometime He just wipes them off the planet altogether, like the Edomites.

The Edomites weren’t wiped off the planet. Edomite armies suffered some spectacular defeats at the hands of King Saul and King David, but they weren’t exterminated as a people. Herod was of Edomite descent and Edomites (aka Idumaeans) played a role in the Jewish revolt against the Romans. The Edomites/Idumaeans gradually assimilated into the surrounding peoples and so no longer exist as a separate people-group.

When the Israelites defeated another nation’s army they, of course, attributed it to God. Likewise, when some other nation defeated the Israelites, that nation, no doubt, attributed the victory to their own gods.

But there appears to be a point, where judgement comes. A person is given over (to what they choose). What that point is, I don't know.

Agreed. And yet it seems that even then they are not beyond rescue.

Van Til definitly was a believer in Penal Substitution, rather than Anselm's view, being a 5-point Calvinist.

I’m aware that Van Til was a Calvinist and therefore favored Penal Substitution, but that particular quote sounded very Anselmian to me.

However, I am not so sure that the Satisfaction theory does not have some biblical merit. I think that most of the major atonement theories have merit. No one of them has the whole truth though, in my opinion.

I agree. Brian McLaren has compared the various atonement theories to windows on the side of a building that all look out onto the same view, but from slightly different angles. One view that I’ve found particularly intriguing is the Covenantal View: http://www.thepaulpage.com/Atonement.htm

I’m glad that Uncle Bob has sparked some good conversation.

[Guest]

Quote:
Either way we are dealing with judgement. I could say the same thing about the punishment after death. That "it was also the predictable outcome of their actions; which Jesus tried to warn them about and steer them away from."

Who could you say that about? The Pharisees? Perhaps. They encountered Jesus face-to-face. But could you say that about the proverbial person who has never heard the Gospel? What about the person who only heard the message of Jesus in a distorted fashion, such as a medieval European peasant?

I could say it about anyone who is denying God. As for those that haven't heard, or have only heard a half truth, it is here that being a Calvinist would be handy, but I am not. I can only trust that God is merciful and will do what's right. I also know that a person can only be saved through Christ. God has it worked out. I am certain though, that it is not only those that saw Jesus face to face that the statement applies to. God has made Himself evident to the world, so that those that deny Him are without excuse.

The Edomites weren’t wiped off the planet. Edomite armies suffered some spectacular defeats at the hands of King Saul and King David, but they weren’t exterminated as a people. Herod was of Edomite descent and Edomites (aka Idumaeans) played a role in the Jewish revolt against the Romans. The Edomites/Idumaeans gradually assimilated into the surrounding peoples and so no longer exist as a separate people-group.

The prophecies that God uttered against Edom, were fulfilled because there are no more Edomites (the Herods being the last that I am aware of).

When the Israelites defeated another nation’s army they, of course, attributed it to God. Likewise, when some other nation defeated the Israelites, that nation, no doubt, attributed the victory to their own gods.

Is this how you view the Old Testament? That the victories attributed to God (and claimed by Him) are some sort of mythology? (Granted, God didn't sanction all of the Jewish wars-or actions, in the OT).

Quote:
But there appears to be a point, where judgement comes. A person is given over (to what they choose). What that point is, I don't know.

Agreed. And yet it seems that even then they are not beyond rescue.

I think that is the point in dispute. Does the bible teach that after a person "perishes, is destroyed, etc.." that there is a point of rescue beyond that?

I agree. Brian McLaren has compared the various atonement theories to windows on the side of a building that all look out onto the same view, but from slightly different angles. One view that I’ve found particularly intriguing is the Covenantal View: http://www.thepaulpage.com/Atonement.htm

Good analogy. Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

God bless,

[Guest]

Hi Homer,

Although I’ve come to the point of leaning towards Christian Universalism (or Universal Reconciliation), I’m by no means an apologist for it, nor have I answered every question to my own satisfaction. I’ll take a stab at answering your questions, but my answers will only be my own views. I can’t claim to speak for anyone else who may hold to (or lean towards) C.U. As in any doctrinal area, there are surely various shades of C.U.

1. If God can not punish eternally, is it OK for him to punish Hitler for, say 100,000 years? And if so, why not eternally? What is there that makes an "ages" long punishment acceptable, but not eternal? If 100,000 years is "just", could not eternal punishment be also just if sin was much more serious in God's eyes than we perceive it to be?

I would agree to the premise (What’s the difference between 100,000 years of punishment and eternal punishment) but come to the opposite conclusion. I don’t see the point of 1,000 years or 100,000 years or eternal punishment.

2. How can a good God allow terrible suffering in this life? Little innocent children suffering horribly? And yet God ordered the Amalakites slaughtered, men, women, and children, for what their ancestors had done to the Israelites 400 years before!

Regarding the question of Theodicy my answer is that God allows suffering because pure and honest love must be reciprocated out of free will. Sin, evil and its effects are also a direct result of free will (unfortunately). As far as the Amalekites go, that is certainly one of the more difficult sections of scripture to reconcile with the image of God revealed in Christ. Do you think that God’s judgment upon the Amalekites was limited to their slaughter or will they additionally be tormented in Hell forever?

3. How could a good God cause all humankind to suffer and die for one small sin by Adam and Eve? Do we perhaps have a radically different perspective regarding the seriousness of sin than God does?

Hey, that’s two questions!

Regarding question 3a, I don’t take the story of Adam and Eve to be literal and therefore don’t subscribe to the doctrine of Original Sin. To someone who does take the story of Adam and Eve literally and does believe in Original Sin, I would ask “How could a good God cause all humankind to suffer and die for one small sin by Adam and Eve?”

Regarding question 3b, no, I don’t think so.

4. And how about Uzzah, put to death by God for a well intentioned act, trying to stop the Arc from falling?

How about poor Uzzah? He broke the law and died. No doubt this served as a warning to the rest of the Israelites. I’m not sure I understand what this has to do with eternal torment, unless you’re positing that Uzzah is in Hell.

5. May not eternal punishment be something other than literal burning in a lake of fire? What about being cast "into outer darkness", total separation from God? Would this be more palatable to you?

The issue isn’t one of palatability. It’s one of trying to find truth. You bring up a good point though. Which is it? A burning lake of fire (with indestructible worms thrown in) or outer darkness? Or are these descriptions symbolic? And if they’re symbolic, what are they symbolic of? Who were these descriptions spoken to initially and what would they have meant to the original hearers in the original context?

6. Did the God of the Old Testament repent and become a Christian?

Interesting question. God does repent in the O.T. and He did become the original Christian, so to speak. I’m not quite sure though where you’re going with this question. Are you saying that the Christian God is different from the O.T. God? Speaking of the O.T., why do you think it is that there are no references to Hell in the O.T.?

Perhaps we have put God on trial, rather than the other way around.

Are you accusing me of doing that?

Universalism is based on very weak exegesis, lots of speculation, and well intentioned wishful thinking.

Funny, I’ve heard Christian Universalists say the same thing about the doctrine of eternal torment. Well, ok, maybe not the “wishful thinking “ part. Although, wasn’t it Calvin who said that the saints in Heaven would watch with delight the souls writhing in Hell? Maybe it was Jonathan Edwards.

As for those who have never heard the gospel, I am confident of God's mercy. " Mercy overcomes judgement"; He will do what is right.

Which is what? If you believe the doctrine of Original Sin, then you believe that those who have never heard the Gospel are sinners, alienated from God, right? If they’ve never heard the Gospel then they’ve not received Christ and been forgiven, correct? Do you believe one can go to Heaven without receiving Christ? When they die and stand before God and their sins are not washed by the Blood of Christ they will be found guilty of their sin, wouldn’t they? Do you believe that those who are not “in Christ” will go to Hell?

Explain to me how this is merciful and right.

Derek,

I think that is the point in dispute. Does the bible teach that after a person "perishes, is destroyed, etc.." that there is a point of rescue beyond that?

Agreed. This is a key point. I’m not convinced that one can only be saved prior to physical death.

[Guest]

Derek,

I think that is the point in dispute. Does the bible teach that after a person "perishes, is destroyed, etc.." that there is a point of rescue beyond that?

Agreed. This is a key point. I’m not convinced that one can only be saved prior to physical death.

I'll put in my 2 cents on this point. The word "perish" as it is used in John 3:16 does not refer to physical death. It refers to someone who is overcome in their own sinfulness. Someone can be "dead" in sin. Just like this woman....

1 Tim 5:6
But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.

In this sense, someone who has "perished" can repent and find salvation.

Someone who has perished may be full of envy, jealousy, bitterness, pride, hatred, anxiety, lust, anger, greed, selfishness, violent, etc. Someone who is overcome in these things can be described not only as "perished" or "dead" but also "destroyed."

Conversely, someone who is saved is full of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control, compassion, generosity, and selflessness. This describes someone who has "eternal life," which Jesus defined as someone who "knows God" (John 17:3).

Todd

[Guest]

It's interesting that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire and brimstone which is the same material found in the lake of fire. And brimstone is really sulfur which is a cleansing agent and is tasteless and oderless and has no action on the skin.
Sulfur is a poor conductor of both heat and electricity therefore what could it's purpose be in the lake of fire. WHY is it mentioned at all?
So what does the word BRIMSTONE represent? According to Strong's Greek Dictionary of the NT #2303 "theion"which means "fire from heaven" and comes from "theios" #2304 which means
DIVINE or The power of God, 2 Pet 1.3
So why is BRIMSTONE in the lake of fire? Perhaps because God is in the Lake of Fire or perhaps God is the Lake of Fire. "Our God is a consuming fire" Heb 12.29.

[Guest]

Brian McLaren has compared the various atonement theories to windows on the side of a building that all look out onto the same view, but from slightly different angles. One view that I’ve found particularly intriguing is the Covenantal View: http://www.thepaulpage.com/Atonement.htm

I’m glad that Uncle Bob has sparked some good conversation.

Mort,

Thanks so much for that link. Good reading. The Covenantal View expressed by Brian makes a lot of sense. I like it.

Todd

[Guest]

Agreed. This is a key point. I’m not convinced that one can only be saved prior to physical death.


This is what it comes down to Mort. The whole debate and the fate of 98% of all of humanity throughout the course of human history comes down to the answer to this question. "Once to die and then the judgement." Exactly what is the nature of this judgement as every single person who has ever lived will be resurrected and face Christ.
What is the intention of Jesus Christ who hung on the cross and said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do?"