A Prayer to Mary

_kaufmannphillips
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Post by _kaufmannphillips » Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:35 pm

Hi, TK,

Thank you for your rapid response! I'm way behind here, as you can see :D .
that being said, i do think there are certain facts that need to be understood (and believed and acted upon) in order to enter the kingdom that Jesus described.
In this statement, how are you understanding "the kingdom that Jesus described"?

Shalom,
Emmet
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_TK
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Post by _TK » Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:37 pm

the kingdom is made up of those who are followers of Jesus.

i realize that may be a simplistic answer, but its the first thing that came to mind.

TK
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"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)

_kaufmannphillips
Posts: 227
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:25 pm
Location: SW Washington

reply to TK

Post by _kaufmannphillips » Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:47 pm

Hi, TK,

Thank you for clarifying :D .

Shalom,
Emmet
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_Thomas
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Post by _Thomas » Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:29 am

Yikes!! If this isn't idolatry, then we cannot know what idolatry is biblically.
As any RC theologian will tell you: (quoting the Catholic Encyclopedia)

In Catholic theology there is a clear distinction drawn between the worship or latria (adoration, which may be offered only to God), and veneration and praise, or dulia. Catholicism has traditionally accorded to the Virgin Mary the veneration of hyperdulia, which rests in part upon the angelic salutation, "Hail, full of grace"

However : this prayer in giving to Mary the attributes and praise due only to Christ certainly crosses the line. The average catholic doesn't know the difference and the church does'nt teach it. There is here in Latin America an active cult of Mary worship. (my wife being one) The RCC churches are divided between the orthodox "rosary" , and the Mary focused. From the outside the RCC looks like an institution unified in it;s belief but that is far from the truth. There are many different strains of belief.

I have some quotes from Kenneth R. Samples c, of the Christian Research Institute:

" Popular folk Catholics are found especially in Central and South America. These Catholics are very eclectic in their religious thinking and practice. They often combine elements of an animistic or nature-culture religion (the primitive religious beliefs that associate the forces of nature and culture with myriads of spirits) with a traditional medieval Catholicism. "
"Certainly, official Catholic teaching does not sanction this kind of syncretistic religiosity. In certain respects, however, the Catholic church remains culpable. First, the Catholic church has been negligent by failing to train these people to reject all forms of paganism and to embrace solely the Triune God of Christianity."
:"Even some Catholics in the United States virtually worship saints and the church has failed to take aggressive measures to correct this serious problem of idolatry. It is actually much worse when it comes to devotion to the Virgin Mary, where on a practical level millions of Catholics commit idolatry on a daily basis by worshipping the virgin. This is certainly contrary to official church teaching (i.e., teaching set forth by the Vatican as standard Catholic doctrine), but the Catholic church has been derelict in correcting this serious problem. If the Catholic church wants to convince evangelical Protestants that they merely honor Mary, but do not worship her, then they must step in and stop this gross idolatry"

Origens:

Mariology probably began with the veneration of martyrs.The martyrs, it was held, passed immediately into the presence of God. The stress laid upon the "satisfactory" character of the sufferings of the martyrs, emphasizing the view that by their death they could obtain graces and blessings for others, naturally and immediately led to their direct invocation. This was the transfered to Mary.
(from CE)"The existence of the obscure sect of the Collyridians, whom St. Epiphanius (d. 403) denounces for their sacrificial offering of cakes to Mary, may fairly be held to prove that even before the Council of Ephesus there was a popular veneration for the Virgin Mother which threatened to run extravagant lengths. Hence Epiphanius laid down the rule: "Let Mary be held in honour. Let the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost be adored, but let no one adore Mary"

and yet "The Council of Ephesus in 431 sanctioned the cult of the Virgin as Theotokos, Mother of God, allowing the creation of icons bearing the images of the Virgin and Child. Mary, as the first Christian Saint and Mother of Jesus, was deemed to be a compassionate mediator between suffering mankind and her son, Jesus, who was seen as King and Judge."

Thomas
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