Resurrection and Judgment

[Guest]

Paidion,

It doesn't matter at all that "many scholars disagree ... that 'aionios' can never be translated as 'eternal'. For these "many" scholars have absorbed the thinking which originated through the catholic church of the fourth century, heavily influenced by Augustine, and passed on to the later Catholic church, which early Protestants (who got it from the Catholics) then adopted.

Again, Thayer was a Unitarian Universalist, so this argument does not hold water.

<b>Homer said:</b>

Says A. T. Robertson, "Word Pictures in the New Testament": "The word aionios means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word."

I would also add that A.T. Robertson in the same book, says that aidios is "synonymous with aiōnios".

God bless,

[Guest]

The people closest to Jesus never uttered one single warning about this eternal hell yet Jesus opened their eyes to the kingdom of God. The churches closest to the writing of the NT did'nt believe in an eternal hell except for one the RCC, yet this church became dominant and suppressed all critical thinking for a thousand years. By that time eternal hell was orthodox and the "scholars" could now tell that, yes the RCC was correct and unbiased in their eternal hell doctrine.

No they were not using it as a sledge to keep people in line or for motivating people to pay money for their salvation. No that's not possible.

[Guest]

Paidion contends, as I anticipated, that all qoutations of the early church fathers are translated incorrectly regarding eternal punishment. Of course, we are repeatedly assured all the great many lexicons (Strong, Wigram, Thayer, Zodhiates, A.T. Robertson, Kittle, NIV Theological Dictionary, et al) that translate Greek words in contradiction to his universalism are in error while he approvingly refers to the Rotherham translation, the bible of the.....Christian Scientists!

You didn't say a word about Joseph Bryan Rotherham himself. He was a Methodist, and became an evangelist for the Churches of Christ. The producers of The Online Bible program saw fit to include Rotherham's translation among the many translations.

If you, Homer, should ever create a Bible translation, you'd better hope that no cult leaders get hold of it and use it, or you may have to reject your own translation.

In the case of Justin Martyr, it appears he was actually anihilationalist:

Quote:
With regard to the subject of our inquiry, he uses the following language: "Every one is stepping forward into everlasting misery or happiness, according to his works." "Moreover we say that the souls of the wicked, being reunited to the same bodies, shall be consigned over to eternal torments, and not, as Plato will have it, to the period of a thousand years only." "Satan, with all his hosts of angels and men like himself, shall be thrust into fire, there to be tormented world without end, as our Christ hath foretold."

These passages are strongly phrased, and might be taken as evidence that Justin believed in endless punishment, if there was nothing in his writings to conflict with them.

If Justin had been an annihilist, he surely would not have said that Satan and his angels would be tormented forever. Indeed, that is further evidence that translating Justin's phrase as "world without end" or "forever and ever" is incorrect. Although I don't have Justin's writings in Greek, I suspect his phrase as "tou aiōnos tōn aiōnōn" as is found in Ephesians 3:21 which the King James Version translates as "world without end". The phrase literally translates as "of the age of the ages".

By the way, have you ever considered where the Catholics got their doctrine of "purgatory". It seems that they tried to retain the historic Christian teaching concerning Gehenna as well as the new teaching which Augustine brought in concerning eternal punishment.

So, there was a new understanding of Origen's teaching, "... God acts in dealing with sinners as a physician... the fury of his anger is profitable for the purging of souls. Even that penalty which is said to be imposed by way of fire is understood to assist a sinner to health...
De Principiis II.x. 4, 6

Instead of understanding Origen as suggesting that Gehenna is remedial, they now believed that Gehenna gave eternal punishment, but also that a Purgatory existed somewhere to purge those sinners who might be disposed to repent.

[Guest]

Paidion,

You wrote:

You didn't say a word about Joseph Bryan Rotherham himself. He was a Methodist, and became an evangelist for the Churches of Christ. The producers of The Online Bible program saw fit to include Rotherham's translation among the many translations.

If you, Homer, should ever create a Bible translation, you'd better hope that no cult leaders get hold of it and use it, or you may have to reject your own translation.

Thanks for the correction! I know you believe in it. I would never have mentioned the Christian Scientists regarding Rotherham's translation had I not believed he was one of them. I read that he was a Methodist who became a member of the Church of Christ Scientist; someone made an assumption and added the word Scientist, and I assumed they were correct without checking other sources.

He was actually in the "restoration movement", as am I! Here are his own words from his "Reminiscences":

At length the question arises - How far am I satisfied still to remain in a position taken up more than fifty years ago? There, on the one hand, is the fact that, from 1850 to 1854, I made three changes in my ecclesiastical position - namely, from the Wesleyan Methodist body to the Wesleyan Association, from that to the Baptists, and from the Baptists to the Disciples (read Church of Christ); and here, on the other hand, is the fact that I appear to have remained stationary ever since - for more than half a century.

(My note in paranthesis)

I was very happy to learn he was not a Christian Scientist! You can read his reminiscences here:

http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~pdover/rothidx.htm

Perhaps you already have.

They are quite long. I noticed his view of baptism was similar to yours and mine. Do you know if he became universalist? It would be interesting to know if he saw Matt. 25:46 the same way you do?. I had to skim part of it due to lack of time.