Resurrection and Judgment

[Guest]

My guess is that not one of those authors used the true Greek word for "eternal" in describing the future state of the lost.

What is the true Greek word for "eternal" and where does it occur, if at all, in the New Testament? (Please forgive me if you've already answered this question and kindly just point me to where it is posted.)

[Guest]

The Greek word which means "eternal" is "aidios". Lexicons say it is derived from "aei", a little word that occurs a number of times in the New Testament. It may be the source of the Scottish "aye" (ever), and is usually translated as "always".

"Aidios" occurs twice in the New Testament in the following verses:

Romans 1:20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse...

Jude 1:6 And the angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper dwelling have been kept by him in eternal chains in the nether gloom until the judgment of the great day...

One could question the Jude quote as to how these fallen angels can be included in the reconciliation of all rational beings to God, if they are kept in eternal chains. But notice they are kept in these eternal chains until the judgment of the great day. That suggests the possibility that they might be kept in these eternal chains only until the judgment of the great day. In other words, their chains are eternal, but their imprisonment in these chains may come to an end at their judgment, at which time they may be cast into the Gehenna of fire.

I admit that I do not understand why their chains are eternal unless the word is being used figuratively (though I doubt it).

[Guest]

Michelle,

Just to balance comment, it should be said that many scholars disagree with Paidion, who says that aionios can "never" be translated as eternal.

Vines-
"-describes duration, either unefined, but not endless, asi in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2 (translated before the world began); or undefined because endless as in Romans 16:26 and other places."

Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Strongs:
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

NASB Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:
αἰώνιος
aiōnios; from G165; agelong, eternal: - eternal (66), eternity (1), forever (1).

God bless,

[Guest]

Just to balance comment, it should be said that many scholars disagree with Paidion, who says that aionios can "never" be translated as eternal.


I believe of the first 6 christian churches 4 were universalist , one was annihilation and one, the RCC taught eternal torment. So if that is correct then most of the people closest to the writing of the NT took "aionios" to be a measurable period of time.
Clearly "aionios" must be taken in context and s/b weighed with other available evidence.

[Guest]

Thanks for the information, guys; it gives me more to think about. Resume your back-and-forth...

[Guest]

Just to balance comment, it should be said that many scholars disagree with Paidion, who says that aionios can "never" be translated as eternal

.

It doesn't matter at all that "many scholars disagree ... that 'aionios' can never be translated as 'eternal'. For these "many" scholars have absorbed the thinking which originated through the catholic church of the fourth century, heavily influenced by Augustine, and passed on to the later Catholic church, which early Protestants (who got it from the Catholics) then adopted.

What matters is the word is simply the adjectival form of the noun "aiōn" which clearly means "age" only and never some form of "eternity".
What also matters is that the use of the word throughout the New Testament is consistent with the "non-eternal" meaning. The fact that the word is sometimes used in connection with some quality which is incidentally eternal, and allowing that quality to be eternal, in no way shows that the word sometimes means "eternal". For example, though "aeonian life" is eternal, that does not make the phrase mean "eternal life". The phrase means "life going from age to age".

To give an analogy which may make this clear:

If I use the phrase "heavy book", does the fact that some heavy books weigh over 10 pounds, indicate that the word "heavy" in "heavy book" sometimes means "weighing over 10 pounds"?

Vines-
"-describes duration, either unefined, but not endless, asi in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2 (translated before the world began); or undefined because endless as in Romans 16:26 and other places."

I like Vines use of the word "undefined". An object or quality described as "aiōnion" with regards to whether or not it is eternal, is "undefined". In other word "eternal" is not part of the definition of "aiōnion".

By the way, I think that "before the world began" is a most ridiculous translation of "pro chronōn aiōniōn" in Titus 1:2. There's no word "world" in the phrase at all! The AV, KJ21, and Revised Webster so translate it.

Only the authors of the ASV were bold enough to translate it literally and insist on the meaning of "aiōnion" as "eternal":

ASV "before times eternal" (which, of course, makes no sense)

Notice how the following translations use noun "ages" in their translations, even though "aiōnion" is an adjective. At least these translators recognize that "aiōnion" is a form of "aiōn" (age).

RSV "ages ago"
NRSV "before the ages began"
Darby "before the ages of time"
ESV "before the ages began"
JB2000 "before the times of the ages"
NAS95 "long ages ago"
YLT "before the times of the ages"

Rotherham who never translates "aiōnion" as "eternal" translates it using the adjective "age-enduring":

"before age-enduring times"

Another group of translators:

NIV "before the beginning of time"
NKJV "before time began"
Philips "before the beginning of time"

The phrase this last group uses in inherently self-contradictory.
If time had a beginning (and I think it did) there WAS no "before"!

[Guest]

The question has been asked if there are any verses which suggest that it is possible to repent after physical death. Consider the following...

John 11:25-26
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

The context of this passage is the raising of Lazarus from the dead. We have two verses here. The first verse (v25) is speaking of those who are dead and then believe. The second verse (v26) is speaking of those who are still alive and then believe. Jesus seems to say that those who are dead and believe will live. And those who are alive and believe will never die.

Another possibility is that v25 is saying believers who die physically will live again physically; and v26 is saying that believers will never die spiritually.

Thoughts?

Todd

[Guest]

Paidion contends, as I anticipated, that all qoutations of the early church fathers are translated incorrectly regarding eternal punishment. Of course, we are repeatedly assured all the great many lexicons (Strong, Wigram, Thayer, Zodhiates, A.T. Robertson, Kittle, NIV Theological Dictionary, et al) that translate Greek words in contradiction to his universalism are in error while he approvingly refers to the Rotherham translation, the bible of the.....Christian Scientists!

In the case of Justin Martyr, it appears he was actually anihilationalist:

Quote:
With regard to the subject of our inquiry, he uses the following language: "Every one is stepping forward into everlasting misery or happiness, according to his works." "Moreover we say that the souls of the wicked, being reunited to the same bodies, shall be consigned over to eternal torments, and not, as Plato will have it, to the period of a thousand years only." "Satan, with all his hosts of angels and men like himself, shall be thrust into fire, there to be tormented world without end, as our Christ hath foretold."

These passages are strongly phrased, and might be taken as evidence that Justin believed in endless punishment, if there was nothing in his writings to conflict with them. The contrast between the "thousand years" of Plato and the "eternal torments" believed by the Christians of his time, would seem to indicate that "eternal" was to be taken in the sense of absolute eternity. Still it was not, evidently, so intended; for Justin did not believe in endless torments, but in the final annihilation of the wicked, as the following will show:

"Souls are not immortal," says he..."I do not say that all souls will die. Those of the pious will remain (after death) in a certain better place, and those of the unholy and wicked in a worse, all expecting the time of judgment. In this manner, those which are worthy to appear before God never die; but the others are tormented so long as God wills that they should exist and be tormented. Whatever does or ever will exist in dependence on the will of God, is of a perishable nature, and can be annihilated so as to exist no longer. God alone is self-existent, and by his own nature imperishable, and therefore he is God; but all other things are begotten and corruptible. For which reason souls (of the wicked) both suffer punishment and die."

Tertullian was definitely in the eternal punishment camp:

Quote:
He seems to have believed in the strictly endless punishment of the wicked, and to have argued against the doctrine of their annihilation, or, to use his own words, against the doctrine that "the wicked would be consumed, and not punished," that is, endlessly.

He is the first, as far as can be ascertained, who expressly affirmed, and argued the question, that the torments of the damned would be equal in duration to the happiness of the blessed.

(Quotes are of Thomas B. Thayer, universalist. He is not the Thayer of lexicon fame)

Michelle asked:

What is the true Greek word for "eternal" and where does it occur, if at all, in the New Testament? (Please forgive me if you've already answered this question and kindly just point me to where it is posted.)

Paidion replied:

The Greek word which means "eternal" is "aidios". Lexicons say it is derived from "aei", a little word that occurs a number of times in the New Testament. It may be the source of the Scottish "aye" (ever), and is usually translated as "always".

And so also does "aionios" come to us from "aei".

Says A. T. Robertson, "Word Pictures in the New Testament": "The word aionios means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word."

Paidion, perhaps we can reach a truce in this logomachy if we will agree that aionios might be used in the New Testament in more than one sense, wheter literally or figuratively.

[Guest]

To summarize the traditional view of Christianity in a nutshell it vastly improves the eternal future of a very small amount of true followers of Christ and simultaneously assigns the eternal future of the vast majority of mankind to eternal torment/darkness/separation from God with no possibility of repentence after death though according to Paul we have looked through a glass darkly at best.
All i can say is that if this will be true then Satan must be very very pleased.
Satan will go down but he gets to take 98% of the world with him forever most of whom are average Joe's who don't have a clue.

[Guest]

To summarize the traditional view of Christianity in a nutshell it vastly improves the eternal future of a very small amount of true followers of Christ and simultaneously assigns the eternal future of the vast majority of mankind to eternal torment/darkness/separation from God with no possibility of repentence after death though according to Paul we have looked through a glass darkly at best.
All i can say is that if this will be true then Satan must be very very pleased.
Satan will go down but he gets to take 98% of the world with him forever most of whom are average Joe's who don't have a clue.

Well said, Steve. Even though it is said that Christ came to seek and to save that which is lost, He apparently is only fractionally successful at His stated purpose (if the traditional/annihilation views are correct). This is reason enough (for me) to seek more reasonable understanding of the Bible texts.

Todd