Sean,Sean wrote:Why would God give any warning or interact in any way with us while in the flesh if the "true" salvation comes to all after death?Father_of_five wrote:Allyn,Allyn wrote:Just a quick reply for you Todd. Steve teaches that under the old covenant the people only had the priest to teach them the ways. This ceased once the gospel came into effect under the New Covenant. We all now equally have access to the teachings of the Gospel not only through the word, but through the Holy Spirit.
You and Sean and Steve could very well be correct. If so, then the "all" in verse 11 is referring to "all christians." If you try to reconcile the verse with the orthodox veiw then it could mean nothing else. If however, someone were to espouse universalism, he could easily take it to mean "all flesh."
Todd
Why is there a condition of repentance from dead works and a renewal by the Spirit if salvation comes to all?
To be honest, annihilation makes more sense.
All are reconciled but there is a condition to this. Faith, not like the demons who believe and shudder, but a true faith.
I believe God does it this way to test you. There is no better way to test someones love than to put them in a place of temptation and then offer them a way out that requires denial of the world around them and an obidience to and invisible God.
That's why those who know the truth, but would rather live it up now in denial only store up God's wrath against them.
This is a passage that comes to mind:
2Th 1:5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering--
2Th 1:6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2Th 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
It seems that there is a seperation of believers and unbelievers. You can point to the passage that says 'every knee will bow and every tongue will confess'. I agree, this is after death/at the resurrection. The unbelievers will confess the truth, but that doesn't make them a true believer any more than a demon is a believer just by confessing Jesus. There is a difference. I can convince someone that Jesus died for the sins of all, but even if they believe it as a historical fact, they still have to be born again. So people are going to admit the truth on the day of judgement, but if God let them go, they would just go back to sinning again, because that is their desire. Someone who is saved still does commit sin, but it pains them and they look foreward to relief. An unsaved person doesn't want God under any circumstances. Think about it, God has offered His Son as payment, and people trample it, because they don't want it. I believe this is the way God proves who honestly love Him.
Thank you for your post. I agree with you that there are many verses which make believing in universalism difficult. The one you quote is one of them. However, the version you are quoting from adds the word "away" when it says "away from the presence of the Lord..." It is the presence of the Lord and the brightness of his coming that does the destroying. But what is destroyed? Is it the entire spirit, soul and body?...or perhaps it is the sinfulness of man that is destroyed.
I do agree with you that annihilation makes more sense than never-ending torture, but why resurrect the unjust just to destroy them again. That makes no sense either to me. As Paul said, "he that is dead is freed from sin" (Rom 6:7). And how can death truely be destroyed if many are annihilated?
I believe it is possible that there are two ways through Christ into the Everlasting Kingdom. The first one is willing (in this life), through faith in him. Those who follow this path enjoy the fruit of the spirit and everlasting life in the presence of Jesus. The other is through the cleansing fire of judgment and wrath of God. Paul says that this way is accompanied by "tribulation and anguish" (Rom 2:9). The verse you quoted says that these will be "punished" with everlasting destruction. All punishment is meant to bring about a correction. The fact that it is everlasting could mean that the "effect" of the punishment is everlasting, or, in other words, there has been a total reformation that has taken place. That which was sinful and disobedient has been destroyed. It is possible that those who are in this latter group do not have the same status in the Everlasting Kingdom. Perhaps they have no "inheritance" yet still enjoy the praise of Christ, their redeemer.
So why even consider such things? Because there are many verses which seem to indicate Christ's death served to reconcile the whole world (2 Cor 5:19, Col 1:20, Rom 11:15, Rom 5:8-11). That he was the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). And that God will be merciful to everyone (Rom 11:32). And that his devine purpose is to gather together all things in Christ (Eph 1:10).
To deny the gathering together of ALL things in Christ could be to admit that even though Christ died for the sins of the whole world he was only able to save a few and that Satan, in the end, is the greater victor. No, this cannot be. At least that is how I see it at the present time.
Rev 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Todd