Trinity Stuff

Post by **_loaves** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:10 pm

Arianists (Isaac Watts was one) believe that Jesus was the first created thing by God, but that He is totally divine. I am not an Arianist, but if I was, would I really care? What difference would it really make in the long run? Jesus is still completely divine, even if He was created.

Arianism is different from what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe.

Jehovah’s Witnesses (“JWs”) don’t believe in the Trinity. Arianists do.

JWs say that Jesus is not Jehovah like the Father is. Arianists believe Jesus is Jehovah, meaning God. Because Jesus is prophetically referred to as Jehovah in Isaiah 40:3.

JWs believe Christ was the firstborn of all creation and was created millions of years ago before the world was formed; they also think Christ is the archangel Michael. While Arianists believe Christ was created, they also believe He is 100% God.

What Loaves Believes
I am not an Arianist and I disagree with them in several points.

I believe that the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God the Father are equally divine. John 10:30.

Jesus Christ
Jesus is eternally the Son of God. John 3:16,17; Prov. 30:4, Hebrews 1:2,8. This means He eternally has the same nature as the Father.

Christ wasn’t created but is the Creator. This is clear in Isaiah 44:24 and Colossians 1:16. And since the New Testament portrays Christ as Creator, how can he be created?

Both the Father and Jesus are called “Mighty God” in Isaiah 10:21, 9:6.

Jesus is equal with the Father in His divine nature, John 10:30. Positionally, the Father was “greater” than Jesus. But functionally, just as husband and wife are equal, Jesus and the Father are divinely equal.

Names and attributes of “Jehovah” are applied to Jesus throughout the Bible. For example, Jesus is called God in Titus 2:13. Jesus is called “Eternal” in Isaiah 9:6. And I could go on and on. To ascribe these powers to anyone but God would be blasphemous.

Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is a person because He has all the attributes of a person. The “Mind” in 1 Cor. 2:10, the “emotions” in Eph. 4:30, and the “will” in 1 Cor. 12:11. He does things only a person can do, such as praying and speaking to people.

The Holy Spirit is not only a person but He is also 100% God. He is even called God in Acts 5:3,4. He also has all the attributes of God including Omnipresence in Psalm 139:7; Omniscience in 1 Cor. 2:10; and Omnipotence in Romans 15:19. Only God can have those traits.

The Trinity
Though to word “Trinity” is not in the Bible, the concept is clearly and plainly taught in Matthew 28:19. There is one God (Duet. 6:4), yet there are three persons (2 Cor. 13:14), who are called “God”—“The Father” (1 Peter 1:2), “The Son” John 20:28, and the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3,4).

In closing, 2 Corinthians Paul says: “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all.”

And in 1 John 5: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” But most consider that a forgery. But if it is a forgery, why don’t we cross it out of our Bibles?

Post by **_Steve** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:03 pm

Loaves,

I think you may be mistaken about distinguishing the belief of Arians from that of the Jehovah's Witnesses. They certainly believe that they follow the Arian doctrine. I had never heard of Arians believing that Jesus is Jehovah God, or in the Trinity. In fact, I believe that these are the very issues upon which Arius disagreed with mainstream Trinitarians.

Post by **_loaves** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:26 pm

Steve wrote:Loaves,

I think you may be mistaken about distinguishing the belief of Arians from that of the Jehovah's Witnesses. They certainly believe that they follow the Arian doctrine. I had never heard of Arians believing that Jesus is Jehovah God, or in the Trinity. In fact, I believe that these are the very issues upon which Arius disagreed with mainstream Trinitarians.

Hmmmmm....... I think my sources were all bad.

Apparently in 325 A.D. most of his writings were burned.

But I think it is true that Isaac Watts was an Arianist. I don't remember.

Post by **_Les Wright** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:53 pm

Hi Paidion,

So, where do you find support in the Bible to back Jesus being begotten before all worlds?

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of
the Father before all worlds,

Whether its Trinitarian or not, I don't get it.

>Edit

Hi again Paidion,

I think I get it now (due to what I read that you posted in the thread that I mad an effort to 'move' here..)

Quote:
Was Jesus the Son with God before His virgin birth?

Yes. "Before Abraham was, I am". He was with God since the beginning of time when He was begotten (NOT CREATED).

Quote:
Do you believe that Jesus is self-exisitant or is His exisitence dependent upon another god?

I'm not sure what you mean by the term "self-existent". I believe that the Father begat Him at the begininning of time, and that there was no time at which He did not exist. That that make Hims "self-existent" or does His existance depend upon the Father? It's a difficult question, and I'm not sure that it even makes sense to try to ask it concerning the Son.

I guess I still were the Bible says Jesus was 'begotten before the beginning of time'? You might be right, but I just don't see it that way. Seems He existed as the Word forever and was begotten 2000 years ago, n'est pas?

Anyhow.. I do see where the 'begining of time' thing comes in, but I just see the 'begotting' happening at another time.

Perhaps it doesn't really make a difference though?

Les

Post by **_loaves** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:39 pm

Paidion, what do you believe about the so-called “eternity past” and “eternity future”? I am really confused about both. Is God in eternity right now (outside of time)? I was wondering if you would share your thoughts.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:33 am

I tend to agree with Paidion in that Jesus always existed but within the Father before the ages were created and then as the KJV states " I came OUT FROM GOD" John 16.27. I think that's what begotten means that He came out from God and in this case i think the KJV is correct before other translations made it sound more politically correct.
After all for a Father to actually be a Father there must have been a birth at some point otherwise it seems to me the Father and the Son would be brothers. So IMO Jesus always existed but not always independent of the Father.

Post by **_Paidion** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:00 pm

Paidion, what do you believe about the so-called “eternity past” and “eternity future”? I am really confused about both. Is God in eternity right now (outside of time)? I was wondering if you would share your thoughts.

As I see it, time does not extend infinitely into the past. There really was a beginning to time! "In the beginning" in Gen 1:1 and John 1:1 is a reference to the beginning of time. One cannot significantly talk about "before the beginning of time". The phrase is an oxymoron.

I do not hold to the concept of the existence of some entity called "eternity" which somehow transcends time, nor the concept that God exists outside of time.

To me, time is a simple concept. It is a measurement of the occurence of event. No events ---- no time. The first event was God's begetting His Son. All subsequent events may be related to that initial event. Thus time began. What was God doing before the beginning of time? The question is meaningless. There was no "before".

Although this is difficult to understand, it is much more difficult to comprehend an infinite regression of time into the past. What was God doing those quajillions of years before He created the universe? Nothing?
Or just thinking and meditating and planning? Is that what He was doing for an infinite number of years into the past? Why did His plans take so long? To me that concept makes no sense.

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:47 am

I guess I still were the Bible says Jesus was 'begotten before the beginning of time'? You might be right, but I just don't see it that way. Seems He existed as the Word forever and was begotten 2000 years ago, n'est pas?

Here's a passage that seems to say that Jesus had a beginning:

Have this mind in you, which is also is in Christ Jesus, who, though beginning in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in the likeness of men. Philippians 2:5-7

Now I suspect you will doubt my translation of the the present active participle form of the Greek word "huparcho" as "beginning". Some translations have "subsisting" and others have "though he was in the form of God", etc. But check out the word in any good Greek lexicon. Strongs number 5259.

The historic Christian teaching that Jesus was begotten before all ages does not imply that "there was a time at which He did not exist." Since the begetting of His Son was the first of God's acts, that is, immediately at the beginning of time, there was no time prior to this. And no "eternity past" (whatever that means) either.

Post by **_Les Wright** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:28 pm

Hi Paidion,

I believe that was me you were quoting. Thanks for your response. I see it that the 'beginning' here is not a reference to Jesus' beginning, but to the fact that He was with the Father prior to being born to Mary and 'emptying' Himself.

Anyhow, I do appreciate your comments on the matter, as I'm sure there is good reason for the opinion found in the historic Christian Creeds (even if I beg to differ).

Tx
Les

Post by **_Jesusfollower** » Mon May 29, 2006 1:09 pm

Philippians 2:6-8
(6) Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
(7) but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
(8) Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (NASB)
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/module ... ge&pid=127