The resurrection - 1 Cor 15

[Guest]

Perhaps a key to understanding how God can destroy the sinner (2 Thess 1:9) and yet reconcile him in the resurrection, may be found in the words of Paul. Paul describes man as somewhat of as dichotomy - two opposing people in one. The "inward man" follows after the things of the Spirit, while the "natural man" (old man) follows after the things of the flesh (Rom 7, Rom 8:1-14, Gal 5:17, 1 Cor 2:14). The Christian identifies with the inward man and strives to follow the things of the Spririt, while the natural man follows after the things of the flesh.

Rom 8:5
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

For the Christian, the "old man" was destroyed through Baptism.

Rom 6:6-7
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

But for the unconverted the "old man" is destroyed through death itself.

Rom 6:23a
For the wages of sin is death

Perhaps it is the "old man" that is destroyed at Christ's coming also - the body of flesh, the body of sin. For the unconverted, who identify themselves with this body, it can be a fearful and terrifying thing. The imagery we are given of the second death in Rev 21:8 could be describing the destruction of the sinfulness of the flesh.

Is it then possible that the "inward man" for the unconverted is what is resurrected on the last day? Maybe that is what Paul is alluding to here...

1 Cor 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

And when Paul says, "For he that is dead is freed from sin" (Rom 6:7), he may be saying that the "natural man" must die so that the "inward man" can be free. This can happen in this life, as it is for the Christian, or it will happen in death for everyone else. So that, in the resurrection, man is no longer a dichotomy, but all are created anew (Rev 21:5) as only the "inward man" in a new incorruptible, sinless body.

These are just some thoughts which may explain the seeming disparity of views.

Lam 3:22-24
22 The steadfast love of the LORD never ceases;
his mercies never come to an end;
23 they are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.
24 "The LORD is my portion," says my soul,
"therefore I will hope in him."

Todd

[Guest]

Also, in favor of your view, is the strange statement of Paul, in Romans 6:7, which, in the Greek, actually reads, "He who has died is justified (or cleared) of sin." I have always wondered about the meaning of that statement, and it sounds similar to your view.

Hi Steve,

Just a couple of more thoughts on this subject about being "cleared" of sin through death.

I have already quoted Rom 6:23 which says that "the wages of sin is death." Paul makes a similar statement in Romans chapter 1.

Rom 1:28-32
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Now, we also have a more obvious example about the penalty for sin. The example is our very own Saviour, Jesus, who died in our stead. Who shed his own blood on the cross as a payment for our sins and who rose again on the third day. He, who took on the sins of the whole world, did not have to spend eternity in hell, but he did suffer a cruel death and three days in the tomb.

By no means do I mean to minimize the great sacrifice that He made, but only want to point out that this may provide a clue into our discussion. I suppose that it is possible that comparing Jesus' death, to the death of a non-christian, may not be applicable, seeing that Jesus himself was without sin. However, he did take on the sin of the world and thus paid the price for it in dying.

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Todd

[Guest]

Hi Todd,

I can't say that your arguments are weak. They make a lot of sense. But I still don't believe they answer every aspect of the biblical revelation totally to my satisfaction. I am not trying to disprove your point. I give it due consideration.

I am conservative by nature, and slow to accept concepts that are very different from my existing convictions until I am satisfied that every bit of relevant scriptural data compels me to change.

I hope I am not stubborn. One reason I am so slow to change is that, if some biblical data do not completely fit some new concept under consideration, and I were to embrace it without complete certainty, I suspect that I might find myself having to return to my original position after the new idea has been tried and found wanting.

Rather than being "tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine," I am inclined to remain at a position that seems to fit all the data I have been able, as of yet, to process. If I later find I should change, I can always do that when the jury comes in.

In the meantime, I am not sliding about hither and yon. Your thoughts are acknowledged as soundly reasoned from scripture, and their presentation is welcome here, so far as I am concerned.

[Guest]

Perhaps a key to understanding how God can destroy the sinner (2 Thess 1:9) and yet reconcile him in the resurrection, may be found in the words of Paul. Paul describes man as somewhat of as dichotomy - two opposing people in one. The "inward man" follows after the things of the Spirit, while the "natural man" (old man) follows after the things of the flesh (Rom 7, Rom 8:1-14, Gal 5:17, 1 Cor 2:14). The Christian identifies with the inward man and strives to follow the things of the Spririt, while the natural man follows after the things of the flesh.


I think that 1 Cor 15 indicates everyone is resurrected with an imperishable body but i don't see anything that would indicate the unjust are reconciled to God at the time they are resurrected. It seems to me Rev 20.13-15 is clear that the unjust must be in the lake of fire after they are resurrected. "And they were judged each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH. And anyone not found written in the book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."
It does'nt sound like annihilation is really a viable option although it's possible but in 1 Cor 15 Paul sounds like he is describing immortality for the just and the unjust. Also death is destroyed before the unjust are in the lake of fire presumably because they have immortality.So it seems like we have eternal damnation for the unjust OR eventual reconciliation to God sometime in the "aion."

[Guest]

Perhaps a key to understanding how God can destroy the sinner (2 Thess 1:9) and yet reconcile him in the resurrection...

I think the key to understanding the destruction of the sinner and his reconciliation after countless ages of correction in Gehenna, is to first understand that the Greek word "apollumi" is often used in a way which differs from the idea of annihilation or from the idea of so tearing something apart that it is no longer functional. It is used in the sense of destroying the original form of a thing, thereby purifying it.
For example:

I Peter 1:6,7 In this you greatly rejoice [that you by God’s power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time], though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ. NKJV

When the word "apollumi" is used in the passive voice, it means "is destroyed", but is often translated "perishes" as in the passage above.
When one refines gold with fire, the gold itself is not destroyed in the sense of being annihilated or so changed that it is no longer gold. Rather the original form of the gold, mixed with many impurities, is destroyed. That original form is changed, and no longer exists. For the fire had the effect of melting the gold and separating it from the impurities.

So it will be in Gehenna.

Malachi 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? "For he is like a refiner‘s fire and like fullers’ soap.

So when the Son of God appears, and the resurrection occurs, the refining process will begin. For some it will take ages and ages to complete. But for those who have continued to rebel against Him, it will be the most effective treatment to lead them to submission to Christ, and to righteousness. God loves all, and will do His best for every individual.

[Guest]

Thank you Steve, Paidion, and Steve 7150 for your contributions to this discussion.

When the word "apollumi" is used in the passive voice, it means "is destroyed", but is often translated "perishes" as in the passage above.
When one refines gold with fire, the gold itself is not destroyed in the sense of being annihilated or so changed that it is no longer gold. Rather the original form of the gold, mixed with many impurities, is destroyed. That original form is changed, and no longer exists. For the fire had the effect of melting the gold and separating it from the impurities.

So it will be in Gehenna.

Malachi 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? "For he is like a refiner‘s fire and like fullers’ soap.

Paidion,

I think that your explanation fits very well with my own. I have said that the "natural man" must be destroyed so that the "inward man" can be set free. This is not unlike the refiner's fire where the impurities are destroyed so that the pure gold can remain.

Steve,

Your point regarding Paul's earnestness about spreading the Gospel is a good one. Paul said, "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;.." (2 Cor 5:11) Paul obviously felt that the alternative to becoming a Christian was to be avoided and strove with his life to persuade as many as possible. But I think that it is entirely possible that the consumation of the "wrath to come" could be finished at his return and be fully completed before the resurrection of the just and unjust.

Paidion and Steve7150,

You both seem to believe that the refining process will take a very long time (ages and ages). Isn't just possible that it could happen in a "twinkling of an eye?" Nothing is too hard for the Lord. I believe that when the destruction is described as "everlasting" it just means complete destruction. When Paul said,

2 Thess 1:8-9
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

He is saying that it is the "presence of the Lord" and the "glory of his power" that does the destroying. It happens at his return and is complete, which clears the way for the resurrection.

My last point, to me, is the most obvious one. Paul said, "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (1 Cor 15:26). This verse seems to be very clear that, at the resurrection, Christ has no more enemies! All have been destroyed before then. That means all sin and evil are gone. Therefore, how is it possible that the majority of mankind is in the lake of fire after the resurrection - wouldn't that mean that Christ still has enemies? I don't think so. All of the purification must take place before the resurrection when death is destroyed. At least, that makes the most sense to me.

1 Cor 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Todd

[Guest]

My last point, to me, is the most obvious one. Paul said, "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (1 Cor 15:26). This verse seems to be very clear that, at the resurrection, Christ has no more enemies! All have been destroyed before then. That means all sin and evil are gone. Therefore, how is it possible that the majority of mankind is in the lake of fire after the resurrection - wouldn't that mean that Christ still has enemies? I don't think so. All of the purification must take place before the resurrection when death is destroyed. At least, that makes the most sense to me.
But does'nt Rev explictly state that the unjust are thrown into the LOF even if they are no longer Christ's enemies? Yes the last enemy to be destroyed is death but still the unjust are in the LOF. And btw did'nt Christ conquer death on the cross well before the general resurrection? I don't know how long people are in the lof only that "aion" leaves any and all possibilities available to Christ. So after the unjust are in the LOF they are still expected to repent and overcome.

In Rev 21.7 it states "He who overcomes will inherit these things and I will be his God and he will be My son."
21.8 "But the cowardly and unbelieving etc and all LIARS ,their part WILL BE in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone which is the second death."
Now in this verse it sounds like the lake of fire itself is the second death.
In Rev 22.15 it still at this late date refers to people outside of the gates of New Jerusalem "Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers."
Finally in Rev 22.17 the Spirit and Bride invite anyone who is thirsty to come to "the water of life." Who are they inviting?
If the LOF is the second death itself then at some point it gets destroyed and whether or not any people are still left in it is debatable. It depends on whether the word "all" is literal or not or just means "many."

I think that Steve's points on the "wrath of God" being absent from a judgement on the unjust being complete before the resurrection is compelling and persuasive. However i find that judgement in the LOF consistent with scripture in it's totality. But at the risk of repeating myself "Aion" does'nt mean all the unjust are there for long periods of time.

[Guest]

Hi Father of Five,
I hope universalism is true, for it would be a great joy to know that my family and loved ones will one day be united in the eternal kingdom of heaven. The only problem is, what about the unforgivable sin, and the age to come. If you will, check out this link, (if you haven't already) and tell me what you think.

http://www.carm.org/uni/blasphemyage.htm

Thanks Father of Five
Tre

[Guest]

Steve7150,

I understand what you are saying, but your assumptions are based on the premise that Revelation is written chronologically, which I don't believe that it is. Scriptures such as Rev 22:17 that you quote apply today. Even the verses in the latter part of Rev 20 I don't think are necessarily written in chronological order. But, of course, you could be right. I certainly don't mean to imply that I have all the answers; rather, I am just trying to understand and make everything fit as best I can. Thanks for your input.

Tre,

I will read the article and comment when I have a little more time.

Todd

[Guest]

You both seem to believe that the refining process will take a very long time (ages and ages). Isn't just possible that it could happen in a "twinkling of an eye?"

Scripturally, I don't think it is possible.

For example:

Matthew 25:46 And they [the "goats"] will go away into correction that goes from age to age, but the righteous into life that goes from age to age."

Yes, the word is "correction". It comes from a Greek word that was used in reference to pruning trees.

The Greek word "aiOnios" cannot mean "eternal". How could there be "eternal correction". For no one would ever be corrected.

On the other hand, how could this "correction" be instaneous? It is a process that takes time.