Death, Then What?

[Guest]

Sean, IMO the "rich man and Lazerus" is the fifth parable in a series of 5 that Jesus spoke to the Pharisees. The previous 2 began with "a rich man" and " a certain man" and this combined the previous 2 into "a certain rich man." There are also other parables that use names which i'll list asap. Regarding "Father Abraham" only the jewish nation thought of Abraham in that way so this story is about the gulf that existed and would exist for rejecting Christ and assumming that the natural connection to Abraham would save them. The apparent literal descriptions of flames (without fire) and torment are jewish idioms which they understood IMO and not literal.

Ok, but my point is that Jesus clearly states a condition of "life" after physical death. During a time before the resurrection. The point is there is no second chance and no turning back after we die. It also teaches that there are different outcomes to death, one good, one bad, both require continued existence and both were explicitly before the resurrection.

[Guest]

Okay, in my next post I'll discuss "the big one", that is Luke 16.

Right now, I would like to attempt to answer these questions:

Is our resurrected body going to be eternal in the heavens?

Yes, Paul said we would be raised immortal!
The word "immortal" means not subject to death. In order not to be subject to death, a person has to be "eternal". The Greek word which some translate as "eternal" is "aionios" which means "going from age to age". That which goes from age to age MAY come to an end, or it may not. Since we will be immortal, our resurrection bodies will never cease to exist.

Is it waiting for us right now in heaven?

I don't think God has prepared a resurrection body, and will transfer the "soul" into this body at the resurrection. Did you get this idea from the word "eternal"? Current thought is that there is an infinite regression of time into the past. I think time had a REAL beginning. But I won't get into that now. Just consider "eternal" as a synonym for "unending".

I thought our dead body is raised when the dead come out of their tombs and is transformed.

Absolutely true!

I didn't think our dead body went to the grave and we have a replacement waiting in heaven.

You are right. It's not a "replacement". It's the same body, but a changed body. "This mortal must put on immortality". Is it not a similar idea to the following from II Cor 5?

"Here indeed we groan, and long to put on our heavenly dwelling"

You missed my point. I'm probably not making myself as clear as I should. My point is (using 2 Cor 5) is to show that our resurrected body is not waiting for us with God in heaven. But Paul says if we die we have a building of God eternal in the heavens. This to me can't be saying that when we die, we have a new body waiting for us in heaven (as we both agree) but that we have a place to go when we die and leave this physical "tent" as Paul said also in Phil 1:21. This building is the same one that comes out of heaven in Revelation 21. There aren't a bunch of "bodies" coming out of heaven in rev 21 waiting to replace our dead mortal bodies while we sleep.

I would also point to Revelation 7:9
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

This is before the resurrection. They are not sleeping.

[Guest]

I did not miss your point. I just didn't think it was valid.

As for the passage from Revelation, that is what John saw in his vision.
You cannot infer "life after death before the resurrection" from a vision. The visions that John had frequently did not depict future events in the order in which they will happen. It my opinion, it was a vision of what would take place after the resurrection.

I didn't fulfill my intention that this post would be about Luke 16, but ....
hopefully next time.

[Guest]

Sean, IMO the "Rich man & Lazarus" does'nt teach every unbeliever is permanently seperated by God after this life but is in fact a parable directed expressly to the jews and possibly to the Pharisees. This is a combination parable/prophecy directed at those who looked to Father Abraham as the path to heaven. As long as they reached out to Father Abraham for salvation there would be a gulf that could'nt be crossed. The tongue,flames,water are idioms or symbols understood by the jewish listeners of that time.
The primary verses used to conclude that this life is the only opportunity for salvation is "once to die and then the judgement" in Hebrews and John 5.29 "All who are in the graves will be raised those who have done evil will be raised to damnation."
The word translated to damnation,condemnation or judgement is "krises" as in the english word crises. In a crises period critical decisions must be made in which life and death may be decided but the ability to make decisions is still available. The lake of fire IMO is God's wrath or judgement but may not be a physical place. In Rev 20 death and hades are thrown into the LOF and presumably destroyed because Paul said "death is the last enemy to be destroyed." Afterwards unbelievers are thrown in and nothing is said about them until Rev 22.17 when the Spirit and the Bride invite"whosoever to drink from the water of life." IMO the Spirit and Bride are speaking to the remaining unbelievers in the LOF.

[Guest]

It is to be admitted that the story of the Rich man and Lazarus was a parable. Nevertheless, we must be cautious in relegating it to the status of mere symbolism.

Consider the discourse of Josephus, Jewish historian, concerning Hades.
I think Josephus lived in the second or third century A.D.
Here are some excerpts. Is this discourse not consistent with the Rich Man and Lazarus story?

From the Discourse of Josephus concerning Hades

. Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the of the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterranean region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot but be there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, in which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to everyone’s behaviour and manners.

2. In this region there is a certain place set apart as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one has hereto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those who have been disobedient to God, and have given honour to such idols as have been the vain works of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment, as having been the causes of defilement; while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never fading kingdom. These are now, indeed, confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined.

3. For there is one descent into this region, at whose gate we believe there stands an archangel with a host; which gate when those pass through that are conducted down by the angels appointed over souls, they do not go the same way, but the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hymns, sung by the angels appointed over that place, to a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of the good things they see, and rejoice in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to everyone of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here: with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor are any briers there; but the countenance of the fathers and of the just, which they see, always smiles them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of Abraham.

4. But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a goodwill, but as prisoners driven by violence; to whom are sent the angels appointed over them to reproach them, and threaten them with their terrible looks, and to thrust them still downward. Now those angels that are set over these souls drag them into the neighbourhood of hell itself; who, when they are close to it, continually hear the noise of it, and do not stand clear of the hot vapour itself; but when they have a near view of this spectacle, as of a terrible and exceedingly great prospect of fire, they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished thereby: and not only so, but where they see the place [or choir] of the fathers and of the just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that has compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it.

5. This is the discourse concerning Hades, wherein the souls of all men are confined until a proper season, which God has determined, when he will make a resurrection of all men from the dead; not procuring a transmigration of souls from one body to another, but raising again those very bodies which you Greeks, seeing to be dissolved, do not believe [their resurrection]. But learn not to disbelieve it; for while you believe that the soul is created and yet is made immortal by God, according to the doctrine of Plato, and this in time, be not incredulous; but believe that God is able, when he has raised to life that body which was made as a compound of the same elements, to make it immortal; for it must never be said of God, that he is able to do some things and unable to do others. We have, therefore, believed that the body will be raised again; for although it be dissolved, it is not perished; for the earth receives its remains, and preserves them; and while they are like seed, and are mixed among the more fruitful soil, they flourish; and what is sown is, indeed, sown bare grain, but at the mighty sound of God the Creator it will sprout up, and be raised in a clothed and glorious condition, though not before it has been dissolved and mixed [with the earth]. So that we have not rashly believed the resurrection of the body; for although it be dissolved for a time on account of the original transgression, it exists still, and is cast into the earth as into a potter’s furnace, in order to be formed again, not in order to rise again such as it was before, but in a state of purity, and so as never to be killed any more. And to everyone shall its own soul be restored. And when it has clothed itself with that body, it will not be subject to misery; but, being itself pure, it will continue with its pure body, and rejoice with it; with which it having walked righteously now in this world, and never having had it as a snare, it will receive it again with great gladness. But as for the unjust, they will receive their bodies not changed, not freed from diseases or distempers, nor made glorious, but with the same diseases wherein they died; and such as they were in their unbelief, they shall be the same when they shall be faithfully judged.

[Guest]

Paidion, Josephus lived through the Roman siege of Jerusalem in 70AD and we owe him a debt for recording what happened. His writings survived which Steve has mentioned could have been an act of providence. But this does'nt make him an expert on scripture does it? He did'nt believe Jesus was the Messiah so should we believe carte blance on his biblical conclusions? My understanding of Hades is that it is the greek translation of sheol the hebrew word usually understood to mean grave. At the resurrection unbelievers are judged but before that time they have not been judged so then if judgement has any real meaning these unbelievers should not do anything but sleep until judgement day.

[Guest]

Thank you STEVE7150 for stating the time during which Josephus lived.

But this does'nt make [Josephus]an expert on scripture does it? He did'nt believe Jesus was the Messiah so should we believe carte blance on his biblical conclusions?

Nowhere did I suggest that Josephus was "an expert on scripture" nor that we should "believe carte blance on his biblical conclusions". Nor was I trying to assign theological authority to his writings. I was setting the stage for my discussion of the Rich Man and Lazarus story from Luke 16. And I really will get to that discussion soon.

I used the quote from Josephus to show that the details of the description of the after life depicted in Luke 16, were believed literally by some in early Christian times. I am wondering whether it was a common belief among the Jews at the time. The passage I quoted, if it were the authentic writing of Josephus, would indicate that this is the case. In other words, it was not considered as mere symbolism among the Jews of the day, but a literal description of the after life. And this fact, if indeed it is a fact, is an important element of the argument I will present.

Speaking of facts, you wrote that Josephus didn't believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Here is a quote from Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 3 that indicates not only that Josephus believed that Jesus was the Messiah, but that He was raised to life again!

Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it is fitting to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was Christ (Messiah); and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, and not extinct at this day.

It is only fair to add when I presented this passage to some atheists who had said that there was no reference to the resurrection outside of the Bible, they asserted that this quote was "added" by Christians, and was not the genuine words of Josephus himself. However, they were unable to justify this assertion.

[Guest]

Paidion, I think it's generally believed that Josephus actually wrote that "the tribe of Christians believed him to be the Christ" but that his opinions probably were altered. I hope they were not but i think that's the general consensus. Steve if you read this could you clarify this please since i know you've studied his writings.

[Guest]

Steve7150,

You keep asserting that the Greek word krises has the same meaning as the English word crises when used in the NT. Wherever did you get this idea? According to Kittle's Theological Dictionary, the meaning of krises is first of all "judicial decision", "judgement".

Looking at Wigram's Greek concordance at every place the word krises is used in the NT, you will find if you translate it as crises, you will have a lot of nonsensical statements.

In Christ, Homer

[Guest]

Homer, According to dictionary.com the english word crisis comes from the greek word "krisis." I never denied that "krisis" means judgement because in fact it does mean judgement. But judgement does not mean conviction it means evaluation which is why the word crisis can use "krisis" as it's root.
According to dictionary.com the first definition of crisis is
a. A crucial or decisive point or situation, a turning point.