Everlasting life , what do we know about it?

[Paidion]

I agree that those who believe in the survival of souls do not necessarily believe in trying to contact the departed. Nevertheless, many of them make the attempt. There seems to be a tendency among those who believe in the survival of souls. In one church I attended, in which prophecies were given as coming from the Lord (spoken in the first person), one elder, after his wife died, gave a prophecy as if his wife were speaking through him.

[Homer]

Doug,

You wrote, and quoted Isaiah:

....we see that after the climactic battle missionaries are sent around the world to evangelize people who've never heard of God (a dynamic that would be completely impossible with the standard approach).

Isa 66:18 "For I know their works and their thoughts, and the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and shall see my glory,
Isa 66:19 and I will set a sign among them. And from them I will send survivors to the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, who draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands far away, that have not heard my fame or seen my glory. And they shall declare my glory among the nations.
Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the LORD, on horses and in chariots and in litters and on mules and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the LORD, just as the Israelites bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD.
Isa 66:21 And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the LORD.
Isa 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.
Isa 66:24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

I am puzzled regarding the understanding preterists have regarding statements they take as literal and others that are taken (apparently) in a figurative sense. In the underlined above a literal sense would indicate a time long ago when beasts were the primary means of transportation and bows and arrows in use. How do you see this happening in the future? Will mankind have regressed to the state of centuries past? And what use do you see in the future for priests and Levites, and how would it be known who the descendants of Levi are if this passage describes a future state?

I am not very familiar with preterism, and perhaps you are saying the "New Heavens and New Earth" began at (or immediately after) the destruction of Jerusalem. Reading this thread I thought the discussion was about events future to us. But if, in your view, you are pointing to the 70AD event, the question is still valid - of what use would God have for priests and Levites post 70AD, or even more relevant, post Jesus' death and resurrection?

[dwilkins]

Homer,

I'll try to answer your question quickly, though it ends up drifting us significantly from the OP and Steve's response to it. I try to take my lead in my approach from the New Testament authors. They see the tangible descriptions in the Old Testament as types and shadows, either figuratively or spiritually fulfilled in the New Testament. There was a tangible promise of a New Jerusalem in the Old Testament that the authors of the New Testament define as the church triumphant, post parousia. Peter's claim that the believers in his days were priests in a new temple system makes sense of an the odd statement in Isaiah that people from far off islands who'd never heard of God would become Levites. The New Testament authors do a good job of giving us a guide for how to make sense of these Old Testament images. However, they never contradict the basic historical dynamic that the Old Testament seems to propose. After "the end", survivors would go to parts of the earth that had never heard of God and would bring them to the New Jerusalem. There is no proposed end to this function in scripture.

To bring this full circle to the OP, I don't see any evidence of the eternal state being life on earth in flesh bodies. Instead, it's life in heaven with newly created bodies of pneumas in the presence of God. There will be members of the kingdom on earth participating in the rule from heaven (similarly to how Amillennialism proposes the current kingdom of God). They will have an increasingly positive effect on human history which will be the fulfillment of the river of Ezekiel 47, the mountain of Daniel 2, and the Jerusalem functions of Isaiah 66 and Zechariah 14.

Doug

[Homer]

Doug,

Thanks for your reply.

The scriptures indicate that the earthly, physical body we have in this life is that of Adam who was the prototype. Then Jesus is the prototype for our resurrected "spiritual" body:


1 Corinthians 15:45-49 (NASB)

45. So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48. As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49. Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.


I see no reason to think that a spiritual body would be an immaterial body, but rather a modification of our earthly body. Jesus, our prototype, certainly had a material body post resurrection:

Luke 24:39-43New American Standard Bible (NASB)

39. See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 40. And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41. While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42. They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43. and He took it and ate it before them.

Can you cite any scripture that would inform us that Jesus' body, post resurrection, was only temporarily physical?

It is my belief that heaven and earth will become one in the new creation.

[dwilkins]

Homer,

The foundation of your understanding of the dynamics involved is a false definition of pneumas, or spiritual. In Paul's day, and in the way Paul used it, pneumas was a physical substance. It was not paranormal or immaterial. So, when people talk about having a physical body in heaven, etc., there is actually no dichotomy between having a spiritual body (1st Cor. 15:44) and a physical one. Scripture says that you will have one made of pneumas, or spirit. Flesh and blood are not suited for that environment. The only reason we presume this to be a problem is the influence of Platonic cosmology that became dominant in the church after the time of the Apostles. I can't tell you with certainty what Christ's body is composed of now, other than it's essentially pneumas according to Paul's definition. I'm comfortable with this because John was. He'd seen him alive as a human in the flesh, crucified, resurrected, and then at the ascension. After all of that he didn't know what Christ was made out of, only that he'd be made out of the same stuff. That's good enough for me, but it precludes being dogmatic about Christ having flesh in heaven (keep in mind, we don't know him any more according to the flesh).

I've heard quite a bit that heaven and earth will become one in the eternal state. I suspect that it has become popular due to Wright's book "Surprised by Hope." I've never seen anyone try to define that precisely (he didn't bother to in the book), so I am curious about what you mean by that.

Doug

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[Mitzi]

6) We shall simply have to wait and see...

I might not understand all mysteries but I do know the One who does. However it works, it's going to be unimaginable and glorious.
The older I get the more mysterious and magnificent life becomes.


Thank you and everyone
for your replies.

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[dwilkins]

Dizerner,

I don't think restorationist Universalism is correct, so the idea of those outside of the gates being in hell doesn't work. This imagery of the New Jerusalem having gifts brought to it perpetually is at the heart of Zechariah 14, Isaiah 66, and a number of other OT passages. I don't have a problem seeing a spiritual fulfillment of it just as the rest of the New Testament proposes a spiritual fulfillment of OT promises. So, I don't expect there to be literal carts carrying literal people up to the gates of the literal Jerusalem. But, I do expect that the spread of Christianity over a long period of time, where all sorts of people including kings and commoners, would accomplish this fulfillment.

I think you're confusing a climactic judgement that destroys the bad people in the vicinity of the judgement with the destruction of all evil for all time. Maybe you can point me to the numerous examples you have in mind.

Doug

[Homer]

Hi Doug,

Still not sure I understand your reasoning. You wrote:

The foundation of your understanding of the dynamics involved is a false definition of pneumas, or spiritual. In Paul's day, and in the way Paul used it, pneumas was a physical substance. It was not paranormal or immaterial. So, when people talk about having a physical body in heaven, etc., there is actually no dichotomy between having a spiritual body (1st Cor. 15:44) and a physical one. Scripture says that you will have one made of pneumas, or spirit. Flesh and blood are not suited for that environment. The only reason we presume this to be a problem is the influence of Platonic cosmology that became dominant in the church after the time of the Apostles. I can't tell you with certainty what Christ's body is composed of now, other than it's essentially pneumas according to Paul's definition. I'm comfortable with this because John was. He'd seen him alive as a human in the flesh, crucified, resurrected, and then at the ascension. After all of that he didn't know what Christ was made out of, only that he'd be made out of the same stuff. That's good enough for me, but it precludes being dogmatic about Christ having flesh in heaven (keep in mind, we don't know him any more according to the flesh).

Regarding pneumatikos I am not sure why it can not refer to a modified state of our "flesh and blood" that is in perfect harmony with God. Paul writes of our resurrected bodies:

1 Corinthians 15:44 (NASB)

44. it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual (pneumatikos) body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual (pneumatikos) body.

But in the same letter he speaks of flesh and blood persons having the same characteristic (pneumatikos) in this life, and contrasts them with persons in this life who do not:

1 Corinthians 2:12-16New American Standard Bible (NASB)

12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13. which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

14. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15. But he who is spiritual (pneumatikos) appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.


On what basis can we say that the contrast Paul makes in the cited scriptures is not the same? Pneumatikos is an adjective in each place Paul uses it. Perhaps our resurrected bodies are those that have been imbued
with immortality and "the mind of Christ".

Thanks for your patience, I'm just trying to sort this out. Perhaps we are splitting hairs since you are not saying our resurrected state will be immaterial.