Experiences and Testimonies

[RV]

3. experiences and testimonies can be encouraging, but are not a reliable evidence of conversion -- scripture only promises that our love and fruit will be such evidence.

Problem is, I see a lot of love and fruit from non-believers.

I see the same problem.

Several years back I met with some JW's. I spent close to a year every Sunday morning with them before I went to church. As we were getting to know each other, one of they guys shared a story with me. Long story short, he was beaten by someone and had almost died. He was in a comma for three months. It was so bad he had lost his voice from the beating. Needless to say, it was a mess.

At the time, I thought good, you survived and now you have a chance at going to heaven because you're talking to me.

Well... as I've reflected on it and I don't think I'm the center of the universe anymore; that story could have been out of any of our households.

There was forgiveness, there was healing and prayer for that healing. For him and his family it was a miracle from God. It was incredible that he even survived.

Many times, these groups display more love and more wisdom. It's a sad truth.

Anyway, really looking forward to more input.

[steve]

Problem is, I see a lot of love and fruit from non-believers.

So true! And what a great confirmation of the power of the gospel that is! The unbelievers you see each day were raised in a society that has been shot-through with Christian influence for centuries. The power of the kingdom of God, like leaven, has so transformed the world that even the lives of those who are either ignorant of Christ, or even rebellious against Him, have inadvertently been infected with His ethics. The world was not like that before the gospel was preached.

Of course, there are people in unevangelized lands who have consciences too. Remember that all humans are made in God's image and, though damaged by sin, still bear much of the original design. The Calvinists have taught us to expect to find "total depravity" in unregenerate men, and not to expect any godlikeness. This, I think, is a great mistake.

As for answers to prayer, I should be surprised to find such only among the saints. If God is even "kind to the unthankful and the evil" (Luke 6:35), we should not be surprised if He is also kind to those who are not unthankful and not particularly evil. Paul appealed to God's goodness to his heathen hearers as a proof of God's leaving Himself a witness among them (Acts 14:16-17).

Of course, with many, the "goodness of God" toward them is meant to lead them to repentance (Rom.2:4).

Thus the Christian message seemingly would prove false if there were no instances of God's goodness in the life of non-Christians. Some "non-Christians" may actually more properly be described as "pre-Christians," and may already be regarded by God as His own (cf., Acts 18:10).

Of course, when one wishes to discover who the real God behind all this kindness is, one must get that from His self-revelation, which is in Christ and in scripture.

Many times, these groups display more love and more wisdom. It's a sad truth.

That is a sad commentary on what religion can do, even to real Christians. It can make them less-loving than even a decent unbeliever. True Christian spirituality will never have this effect.

[RV]

Thanks for your thoughts on that Steve... makes sense.

What is your take on the other stuff? The testimonies and experiences that seem to lead people down other paths.

I look around and wonder though, what sets me/us apart.

Is it simply our doctrine? If so, I for sure don't have it all nailed down. Yeah, the JW's may not believe in the trinity, but beyond saying it's the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I don't have a lot of understanding past that. I can get a little technical with it, but I'm not sure that's correct.

It'd be like saying, well, you're understanding is just a little more correct, not totally there, but you're in. You on the other hand, good on some stuff, but missed it by just a little on that one, you're out.

I understand there is more to it than the trinity, but when it come to the more weighter matters (Matt 23:23), seriously what is the difference?

Just perplexing!

Questions to all, not just Steve

RV

[steve]

Maybe there isn't any significant difference, except that some know the truth better than do others.

The Bible does not indicate that one must believe in the doctrine of the trinity in order to have a relationship with God.

It doesn't say that one must know of the deity of Christ in order to be devoted to Him and to follow Him.

It doesn't say that one must know that the Holy Spirit is personal in order to be filled with the Spirit and have the fruit of the Spirit.

The Bible does say that those who love Jesus and keep His commandments will have God with them (John 14:21, 23).

It does say that those who love others thereby prove that they know God and are born of God (1 John 4:7-8).

It does say that everyone who practices righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7).

This does not mean that we can decide who is and who is not saved. God knows, and perhaps only He (along with the saved person) needs to know. Our task, then, is to make disciples of everyone we can. If their theology (or ours) is defective, it will improve as discipleship progresses, and as Jesus teaches them (and us) the truth.

[Homer]

RV,

I attended a debate last year between an evangelical pastor and Marcus Borg of Jesus Seminar fame. There was a debate followed by a question and answer period with questions from the audience. Borg took the opportunity to share his personal testimony of his experiencing God and it was as impressive as any you will hear. And Borg, as I understood him, does not believe in a personal God. He is a panentheist.

Info on panentheism here:
http://www.gotquestions.org/panentheism.html

Homer

[Ian]

This is a great post and I love the maturity, wisdom and level-headedness sounding forth from the folks here.

[RV]

Hey Homer...

Which one do I listen to?

RV

[Homer]

Hi RV,

You wrote:

Which one do I listen to?

I'm not sure what you are asking.

My concern is that too often a picture is painted of how, if people will only become Christians, their life will be great and all their problems solved. "My business increased profits 100% since I accepted Jesus" or "I was a drunk and accepted Jesus and immediately all temptation was gone". How do these kinds of stories make the new Christian feel who still has great struggles? That God doesn't care for them or that they are not really saved? Jesus urged people to count the cost of following Him. He knew that their life circumstance might get worse, rather than easier.

Two people I know well have amazing testimony. One has terminal brain cancer. He almost died on the operating table and they could not get all the tumor. He gives his testimony in many churches. It is basically how much He loves God and the great peace he has in his circumstances, and how He was not close to God before he got sick. He actually had this great peace overcome him when he was told that he was terminal.

The other person spent a lifetime of drugs, alcohol, and repeated time in jail. He is now free of his past but not without a great battle and repeated failure. It is not always easy.

Seems to me the best testimony is found in the scriptures, John 20:30-31.

God bless, Homer

[Suzana]

Hi RV,

You wrote:

Which one do I listen to?

I'm not sure what you are asking.

Hi Homer,

I could be completely wrong, but my impression was that RV was referring to your link & wanted to know which podcast to listen to.

[RV]

Suzana you are correct. Sorry Homer, I thought you wanted me to listen to one of the audio files on that link.

My concern is that too often a picture is painted of how, if people will only become Christians, their life will be great and all their problems solved. "My business increased profits 100% since I accepted Jesus" or "I was a drunk and accepted Jesus and immediately all temptation was gone". How do these kinds of stories make the new Christian feel who still has great struggles? That God doesn't care for them or that they are not really saved? Jesus urged people to count the cost of following Him. He knew that their life circumstance might get worse, rather than easier.

I know what you mean.

I guess the piece that seems to perplex me the most is the fact that you really can't point to any one thing that really makes us stand out.

When it comes to doctrinal kind of stuff, I'm confident of a couple of things; I'm no scholar and I'm still learning a lot.

Maybe there isn't any significant difference, except that some know the truth better than do others.

The Bible does not indicate that one must believe in the doctrine of the trinity in order to have a relationship with God.

It doesn't say that one must know of the deity of Christ in order to be devoted to Him and to follow Him.

It doesn't say that one must know that the Holy Spirit is personal in order to be filled with the Spirit and have the fruit of the Spirit.

The Bible does say that those who love Jesus and keep His commandments will have God with them (John 14:21, 23).

It does say that those who love others thereby prove that they know God and are born of God (1 John 4:7-8).

It does say that everyone who practices righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7).

This does not mean that we can decide who is and who is not saved. God knows, and perhaps only He (along with the saved person) needs to know. Our task, then, is to make disciples of everyone we can. If their theology (or ours) is defective, it will improve as discipleship progresses, and as Jesus teaches them (and us) the truth.

Your response here Steve makes a lot of sense.

I've been thinking about this for the last couple of days. I think some of my questions really could be answered as I unlearn some things.

Whenever it's come to other groups, it's doctrinal issues that have always stood in the way. I've never really heard anyone say they're unloving and evil in behavior. I have heard people say their motives for love and kindness are evil. Meaning, they're trying to get folks to believe a lie by trapping them with love and good works.

But... as I've really started listening to people, I don't get that feeling. If anything, their much like me. They've been taught things that don't really hold a lot of water, but they're often afraid to abandon those teachings because they're scared they'll abandon the true path in doing so.

I also think doctrine is important though for obvious reasons. But at the end of the day, Steve the things you pointed out seem to be the most important. Not just intellectually, but instinctively and intuitively (probably because of the Spirit).

Anyone have more thoughts on this?